The new MMA general news, events and thoughts thread

[METAL ON METAL]

I see that Bisping didn't even get a nomination for BBC Sports Personality award. Yet they did invite him to the ceremony, to which he replied:

 

"Thanks 4 the invite #bbcsportspersonalityawards .But until U recognize the hard work myself and my fellow fighters put in, I won't be there!"

[David]

I aint so sure about Timmy. I still believe the version of Sylvia that held the belt in the UFC would be close to a top 5 heavyweight today. Used his height to his advantage, good hands, decent engine & solid on the ground. Sylvia is better than a lot of people give him credit for.

 

Yeah, I agree. I think many people are blinded by the image of him walking around in a shirt, slacks and shoes wearing a title belt around his waist so much that they forget that he was actually pretty decent in the cage.

 

His UFC record was 9-4, held the strap twice, and he had that run from 2005 to 2007 when he went unbeaten in five, before dropping the title to Randy in his 6th fight. The very fact that Randy was considered a huge underdog in that fight tells you how dominant Sylvia had been during that particular run.

 

He was a pretty good heavyweight in a relatively poor era, but I think that in the same form as he was during that five fight run he could give most top ten to top five heavies a run for their money today.

[Egg Shen]

Yeh, it's the most under-developed division in the sport, it hasn't moved forward that far. Sylvia would have held his own.

[jimufctna24]

Re: Sylvia vs Couture.

 

A key reason why Couture was such an underdog was because he was coming off a year long lay off, and fighting in a higher weightclass. If the fight would have taken place in 2002, then Couture would have been favourite. In 2007, very few gave Couture much of a hope. Not so much because of Sylvia's dominance. but because of Couture's age and ring rust. 

 

That being said: a decade on there is a slight stigma to Couture's return. At the time, most fans lapped it up, despite a few whispers creeping out that all was not quite what it seemed. I remember Fighting Spirit magazine reporting the rumours at the time - stating that Couture was using HGH. Don't get me wrong, MMA was rife with use at the time, but there isn't really a fight where the PED culture is illuminated like this fight.

 

I can happily reminisce about old Pride fights where the fighters were no doubt juiced to the gills, but this one is a bit different for some reason. Perhaps because there was such a strong narrative attached to it. A bit like Lance Armstrong's Nike commercials with their "LiveStrong" slogan. It adds to the level of deception. There's always the chance that Couture was innocent, but we live in a cynical world when it comes to fighters and PED's, especially when it comes to yesteryear. 

[wandshogun09]

I'm not having it.

 

As shallow a pool as heavyweight is, it's been a way superior division since about 2008 than the one Sylvia ruled over up to 2007. He was champion in an era where fucking Jason Eilers and Paul Buentello were deemed title shot worthy because they had sod all else. That's what they were working with. His wins over Arlovski and Rodriguez were good wins. He deserves credit there. But you look over the rest of his prime run. Gan McGee, Tra Telligman, Assuerio Silva? Absolute rancid stinkers against Monson and Vera? The third Arlovski fight was terrible as well.

 

What did he do that makes people think he'd do anything of note against today's top heavies? Because I'm not seeing it. I'm not saying he was a shit fighter. He wasn't. But he massively benefited from being a big gormless fish in a small pond. I genuinely think if you could take someone like Roy Nelson or Ben Rothwell, middle of the pack in today's division, and put them in that era, they'd probably have achieved just as much as Timmy. And they'd likely have made it a damn sight more watchable.

 

I think people are forgetting how fucking abysmal heavyweight was back then. You put prime Sylvia in today's division and I think the furthest he goes is about Travis Browne level. Maybe a couple of wins over top guys here or there, but ultimately a jobber to the stars. He'd get his shit well and truly pushed in by the likes of Miocic, Velasquez, JDS, Werdum and probably Barnett, Hunt, Lewis etc as well.

 

He was decent but nothing to write home about. A fading Nog and a Fedor who was just about to hit a sharp decline showed what happens when Sylvia stepped up with the real class of the division. Mir showed that as well actually. He wasn't bad, but nothing special. He was basically Kyle Noke on stilts with a shit tribal tattoo.

 

And sadly, he'd probably still wipe out Bigfoot in a round

[David]

 

Legend!!

[jimufctna24]

Nog was also a decent style match-up for Sylvia, and was going through a terrible phase of his career when they fought. Nog got dropped by Herring in the fight prior to Sylvia, an opponent he had the measure of previously. Even when Sylvia was Champion in 2006, the general feeling was that he wouldn't be top 5 in the Pride Heavyweight division. In addition, to Fedor, Nog, and Cro Cop. they also had Kharitonov, Alex and Barnett. If Sylvia ran the gauntlet of those lot, he might win 1 or 2, but it's almost certain he would up on the losing side of things. 

 

Wand: You missed out Cabbage Correria. 

[David]

I can recall pretty clearly back in the days when Sylvia was going on unbeaten runs that most fans always believed his next fight would be the one he lost. He very rarely went in as a clear favourite (outside the Randy fight), and was underrated in my opinion.

[jimufctna24]

He was an underdog for the Vera and Arlovksi fights. Most expected him to beat Monson though, something that Monson alluded to himself on the countdown show. People weren't sure about the Assuerio Silva fight. I don't remember the rest. 

[David]

He was an underdog for the Vera and Arlovksi fights. Most expected him to beat Monson though, something that Monson alluded to himself on the countdown show. People weren't sure about the Assuerio Silva fight. I don't remember the rest. 

 

I actually remembering some people saying that if Monson got him to the ground he'd submit him pretty easily. Fact is, the guy was overrated. Especially by Wand! 

[wandshogun09]

Yeah, I deliberately left that Cabbage fight out as it was Tim's UFC debut so he gets a pass there, he wasn't champ yet. That and the fact it wasn't a bad little brawl and I didn't want to give Timmy any positivity

 

Pride was definitely where the best heavyweights threw down back then. By far. It's why I laugh at people who try to argue that Fedor always avoided the UFC in his prime. His prime was about 2002-2007. When the UFC's heavyweight division was awful. Who was he avoiding exactly? If he was a fight ducker then he was really doing being a coward wrong back then. Ducking Sylvia and Arlovski to fight prime Cro Cop and Nog? What a pussy. And he ended up beating Sylvia and Arlovski anyway, when he was on the slide himself.

 

Edit - Haha who did I overrate Dave? Monson? I don't ever remember rating him highly.

[jimufctna24]

It's why I laugh at people who try to argue that Fedor always avoided the UFC in his prime. His prime was about 2002-2007. When the UFC's heavyweight division was awful. Who was he avoiding exactly? If he was a fight ducker then he was really doing being a coward wrong back then. Ducking Sylvia and Arlovski to fight prime Cro Cop and Nog? What a pussy. And he ended up beating Sylvia and Arlovski anyway, when he was on the slide himself.

Aye. That's a stupid argument. Fedor vs anyone in the UFC was considered a formality during that time-frame. 

 

At the time, the only UFC Heavyweight that I felt might give Fedor issues in the future was Arlovski. Even that was dependent on Arlovski tightening up holes in his game (which he never did) Arlovski was seen as a prospect even when he was UFC Champion. It was accepted that he was a work in progress, and that slapping around Eilers and Buentello wasn't much to go on. People were thinking what he would be like in 5-10 fights time, rather than arguing that he could beat Cro Cop or Fedor. 

[wandshogun09]

Actually that reminds me. I was always really disappointed that a Cro Cop vs Arlovski fight never happened. They always just missed each other but I think it could've been a hell of a fight between say 2004-2006. It nearly happened as well, I'm sure it was being heavily rumoured for UFC 80 in Newcastle at one point. And I was at that show so I'd have got to see it live. Was gutted when it fell apart. I think that's when Cro Cop ended up leaving the UFC for a bit actually and went over to DREAM.

[the_mole]

To be fair people don't knock Pride when they knock Fedor, he beat Nog and Cro Cop from the new generation but decided to fight guys like Zulu as well. He obviously wasn't going to fight his brother but Kharitonov, Werdum & Barnett were all top 10 during that era and he fought guys from the old generation like Coleman & Randleman and guys he should never have been in there with Goodridge, Fujita, Nagata & Ogawa (part of a tournament but he clearly got an easy draw to the semi finals) Mark Hunt was decent but was still seen as a K1 guy back then, even though he beat Cro Cop it was basically a K1 fight.

 

I still say Nog & Cro Cop fought the much tougher men throughout their careers, which is why they have a few loses, especially in Pride.

[jimufctna24]

That was more of a case of Pride's matchmaking, and external circumstances. 

 

Barnett only turned up in Pride in late 2004. Fedor had a rematch with Nog scheduled for late 2004, and a fight with Cro Cop pencilled in for mid-2005. He then got injured after the Zulu fight, and didn't fight again until late 2006. Barnett fought Cro Cop in late 2004, then went missing for a year (I presume due to injury) He then fought Cro Cop again in late 2005, losing again. In 2006, Barnett fought in the Open Weight GP, which Fedor didn't enter because he was injured.

 

The only time when they could have been matched up was on the first USA card, but Pride went with Fedor vs Coleman instead. Or perhaps the 2006 NYE's show, but Barnett instead fought Big Nog again. Fedor fought Hunt on that show. While Hunt had just lost to Barnett, his stock was massively high before that. He was a betting favourite against Barnett, and had wins over Cro Cop and Silva. 

 

Werdum wasn't the force in Pride that he would become later in his career. Plus, he only debuted for Pride in 2005, and left after losing to Nog in mid-2006. As established, Fedor was either injured or pre-occupied with Cro Cop during that time-frame.