Loki Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 I disagree with saying Hogan-Rock looked like a bad match. It looked amazing. You had Hogan, who they'd strongly been pushing as a guy who's time had been and gone, with question marks over whether he could measure up to the Rock, and they had all the dirt sheet writers talking about Hogans injury and whether he could even take a bump. What they actually came out with was fantastic - started slow with tests of strength and built, and by the time they started hitting their finishers the crowd were shitting babies. Â I'd never seen Hogan wrestle a full match before, but I'd read about how shit he was, and how bad his WCW work was and blah blah blah from the usual rappers online, and the one guy I knew who liked wrestling practically refused to watch the match because Hogan was so old and shite. So the actual match was miraculous. It was a GOOD match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members IANdrewDiceClay Posted February 9, 2012 Paid Members Share Posted February 9, 2012 That's irrelevant as the fans were already going nuts over the entrances. Look at the back-and-forth between Cena's shirt, the utter hatred when Cena's music hit and the pop that RVD got. What they did in the ring was completely enhanced by the crowd's reaction, much like Rock and Hogan's matches. So RVD and Cena could have got the Scrabble board out halfway through, could they? Read your post. You just said Cena kept throwing the shirt to the crowd. He did that to subtly wind them up. He was working the crowd. Do you actually think if you replaced John Cena, with Papa Shango, they'd have pulled that off as well as they did? Same with Hogan. Hogan was a heel before hand and he played a face on the night, because thats how he was going to generate maximum heat from the crowd that night. Â Look at Final Battle with Richards and Edwards. They had a cracking match up until the point they should have finished it. Instead they burned the crowd out and nobody rates it half as much as they thought they were going to. Hogan and Rock would never have done that. Everything was timed to perfection, each move meant something and each manerism was right on the money. If Hogan and Rock went for 40 minutes, would we still be remember how hot the crowd was? No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Halitosis Romantic Posted February 9, 2012 Paid Members Share Posted February 9, 2012 Well, maybe not Shango, but definitely someone shite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Screen Up Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 You're really missing the point I'm making, Ian. I completely understand WHY they reacted the way they did. I'm saying that because they did react that way it really did enhance the enjoyment factor for the home viewer. Had it been held in a family-friendly Chicago arena for a Smackdown taping then it wouldn't have been half as entertaining as it was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Pitcos Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Crowds dont make a match. The wrestlers playing with the crowds emotions make a match. Â That's not a fair statement to make. Obviously, the crowds' reactions to a match is ultimately in relation to what they see in the ring but a different crowd on a different night in another venue could have been completely different. Â A crowd's reaction to a match absolutely can make all the difference. If RVD and Cena had been held at a venue elsewhere then it could have been an entirely different match without the heat in the audience. And Ian's point is that the wrestlers make the match work by putting in a performance that that crowd are hooked by. The attitude of "the wrestlers were crap, it was all the crowd" makes no sense whatsoever. Every night, a wrestler should be tailoring their performance to the specific crowd, as well as any TV audience that might be watching. Sometimes, it's hard to do both, but when the wrestlers manage it -- like Hogan, Rock, Cena, RVD did on those nights -- it's brilliant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Halitosis Romantic Posted February 9, 2012 Paid Members Share Posted February 9, 2012 You're BOTH right - the crowd is immensely important, and in another city it wouldn't have had this resonance. However, it would have been easy to piss it all away, and Ian's point about how the workers engage with the crowd is spot on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members IANdrewDiceClay Posted February 9, 2012 Paid Members Share Posted February 9, 2012 And Ian's point is that the wrestlers make the match work by putting in a performance that that crowd are hooked by. The attitude of "the wrestlers were crap, it was all the crowd" makes no sense whatsoever. Every night, a wrestler should be tailoring their performance to the specific crowd, as well as any TV audience that might be watching. Sometimes, it's hard to do both, but when the wrestlers manage it -- like Hogan, Rock, Cena, RVD did on those nights -- it's brilliant. What I was about to write more or less. Money in the Bank's a good example. Cena and Punk have had good matches before and since with each other, but its nights like that you really see the men from the boys. Michaels and Bret had a hot crowd to start with in 1996 and they blew it. A hot crowd doesnt stay hot for long. Â If anyone saw Hogan in WCW in 1995, that sums up my point. Hogan went in with the fans cheering a lot of times and when as the match went on, the fans started going "fucking God, why is this cunt still wrestling". People didnt turn on Hogan just because he was old. People turned on him because he was absolutely shite in 1995. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members WWFChilli Posted February 9, 2012 Paid Members Share Posted February 9, 2012 Sometimes I feel if you put the match in the right place, they will go apeshit for it. Rock/Hogan could have almost worked anywhere but in Toronto, the stars aligned. You have one of Hogan's hottest crowds of fans and you have him against the fucking Rock. The match was a masterpiece I think. Two maestro's putting together and absolute epic, perfect pro-wrestling. Admittedly the storyline leading into it was not up too much. You had the epic stare down between the two on Raw and then all sorts of bollocks like that 18 wheeler angle, which was completely unnecessary and some might says an oversight on WWF's part. Â The fans do not make the match but sometimes there are just certain places with the right guys and an always dependable crowd that you will get those epic moments. I've never been much of a fan of California as a crowd. They always seem not arsed but at Wrestlemania VII when you have the two of the most promoted characters of the cartoon era with Macho Man and Warrior and you throw in the extra ingredient that career is on the line, fucking hell!!! The crowd was gashing bucket-loads at that match. I love hot crowds. Especially that match, when you have such a perfectly worked encounter. Â New York fans (particularly MSG crowds) are always up for it. I love watching old MSG house show matches, because it doesn't seem to matter if you're giving them the Wrestlemania I main event or Judy Martin Vs Desiree Petersen, the crowd just go for anything. New York crowds are fucking lovely. Then you have the sub section crowds. Powerslam mentioned a few times how WCW manipulated their audience back in the Center Stage days. Personally I think it was a perfect little idea from Eric and the lads. You want to get Marcus Bagwell over and Johnny and his workrate mates boo him all over the shop on TV. Fuck that, you want to build your brands and characters, and it is going to air on TV, then you want to projects that right image. Â Hardcore fans absolutely get on my tits. Not in the Toronto or New York type of Hardcore fans but ROH/TNA crowds. I will give ECW the benefit of the doubt, they had a really full-on dedicated fan base and the product was aimed at a more smark/underground audience, so to have those types of crowds (with the product they were producing seemed acceptable to me). Some would say ROH/TNA is the same but it's a different world if you ask me. TNA is bloody atrocious. I hate watching Impact for most the time because since about 2007 the TNA crowd has been astronomically shite. I do not mean the tourists either. I mean the regular fuckers you get at every taping that have been there for the past god-knows how many years. The crowd themselves are burnt out to fuck. Â I have to say I do love a good hometown crowd. Like when Regal & Eugene fought La Resistance on a UK Raw and the crowd was like something at a football match. Sometimes the right crowd can really benefit and give that extra shot of adrenaline to a worker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members JNLister Posted February 9, 2012 Paid Members Share Posted February 9, 2012 So RVD and Cena could have got the Scrabble board out halfway through, could they? Â GPW had two guys have a chess match once. It worked amazingly: nobody could see what was happening on the board, so they just took it in turns to boor or cheer as the heel/face made a move and celebrated. Â I seem to recall the feud ended with a chokeslam into a pile of Lego. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members IANdrewDiceClay Posted February 9, 2012 Paid Members Share Posted February 9, 2012 I throw my hands up then. I can definitely see RVD dropping the bag of letters and cocking the game up somehow, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members WWFChilli Posted February 9, 2012 Paid Members Share Posted February 9, 2012 I throw my hands up then. I can definitely see RVD dropping the bag of letters and cocking the game up somehow, though. Â He'd probably just half-arse the thing. Abyss hasn't used Scrabble or Yahtzee in a match yet. I'm waiting for that inevitable moment though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loki Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 So RVD and Cena could have got the Scrabble board out halfway through, could they? Â GPW had two guys have a chess match once. It worked amazingly: nobody could see what was happening on the board, so they just took it in turns to boor or cheer as the heel/face made a move and celebrated. Â I seem to recall the feud ended with a chokeslam into a pile of Lego. Â Is there footage of that? Sounds brilliant, like the classic Scott Steiner debates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members WWFChilli Posted February 9, 2012 Paid Members Share Posted February 9, 2012 So RVD and Cena could have got the Scrabble board out halfway through, could they? Â GPW had two guys have a chess match once. It worked amazingly: nobody could see what was happening on the board, so they just took it in turns to boor or cheer as the heel/face made a move and celebrated. Â I seem to recall the feud ended with a chokeslam into a pile of Lego. Â Is there footage of that? Sounds brilliant, like the classic Scott Steiner debates. Â I have them on DVD, as I attended all the GPW shows from 2006 up until I got a job that clashed with the shows around 2011. It was a comedy angle obviously, you can buy the two shows in question from the GPW shop (shameless plug) but that's the best place to find them. Â Disturbing the Peace (Hardcore Chess Match is on this) Friday Night Fever (contains the blow-off to the feud and LEGO) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenhill Promotions Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 I know this is probably in the Impact thread already but i felt i needed to given its own thread I dont watch alot of wrestling anymore, TNA and Raw are on my planner and i watch if the spoilers the day before look worthwhile. Well to cut along story short i had a day off work and flicked on TNA impact, I soon saw it was the UK taping.  What a huge difference the crowd made to the show!!!!! I enjoyed the whole dam program (aside from the interviews with fans) It just goes to show how badly they need to move from the impact zone. I agree, TNA tends to bore the shit of me. But this episode I got into and even my mrs, who knows nothing about wrestling, thought it was WWE, which goes to prove the difference a big loud crowd makes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richie Freebird Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 I praise air raid too much on here but that really was a terrific post regarding Joe/Kobashi and I've never seen it explained so well. Â I Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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