BiffingtonClyro Posted May 30, 2011 Share Posted May 30, 2011 Why does Averno have the body of a 50 year old? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PepperPlunge Posted May 30, 2011 Share Posted May 30, 2011 This King Pitcos guy usually posts something interesting or a worthwhile opinion but he's talking a lot of tripe here. From your experiences, he's been shit. From people who know him well, he's a good wrestler but doesn't know how to work the WWE style yet. That doesn't make him shit. If say Wayne Rooney were to sign for Real Madrid and struggled to adapt to the Spanish game, would he be a shit player? I don't need to go into why the Bret Hart argument is ludicrous and scraping the barrel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Carbomb Posted May 30, 2011 Paid Members Share Posted May 30, 2011 Bret Hart has had what, about five or six televised WWE matches in the last year or so? Roughly as many as Sin Cara. And I can safely say Bret Hart is shit nowadays, even though I've seen his old stuff when he was good. "Sin Cara's not shit, because of [blahblahblah from history when he might not have been shit]" is a fallacious argument that you're only making because you know he's shit right now. Out of interest, at what point are you allowed to admit he's shit? If he's still the same in a month, two months, six months? Or does he have a perpetual free pass because of his old stuff?  I think the issue is more that you're stating it as an absolute that he's shit, with his few months' work being the only basis on which to assess his work, rather than, say, "He may have been great in CMLL, but he's shit in WWE, and clearly needs to learn and adapt", which I think would be a fair statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reznor Posted May 30, 2011 Share Posted May 30, 2011 Bret Hart has had what, about five or six televised WWE matches in the last year or so? Roughly as many as Sin Cara. And I can safely say Bret Hart is shit nowadays, even though I've seen his old stuff when he was good. "Sin Cara's not shit, because of [blahblahblah from history when he might not have been shit]" is a fallacious argument that you're only making because you know he's shit right now. Daft comparison aside, when talking about someone's abilities, referring to them as shit tends to be a general opinion. Most people don't use it willy-nilly to refer to someone based on how they're doing at one particular point in time. Just like most people wouldn't use such a definitive & unqualified description when they aren't familiar with that persons body of work, at least not without acknowledging that they're maybe not in the best position to make such a bold, resolute claim. Â Out of interest, at what point are you allowed to admit he's shit? If he's still the same in a month, two months, six months? Or does he have a perpetual free pass because of his old stuff? I wouldn't call him shit, unless he goes back to Mexico and inexplicably loses the ability he had for no apparent reason. I've saw enough of him over a sustained period of 7 years to confidently say that I think he's actually a pretty good luchador. If he fails in the WWE then it's no disgrace, it would just be a case of not having the ability to adapt to that environment. I'm sure the same would probably be said for the majority of the CMLL roster (or probably any other one in Mexico or Japan for that matter). Not cutting it in the WWE would only be damning on him if people were holding him up as being at the level of Jushin Lyger or Rey Misterio, and i don't think anyone's doing that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members CleetusVanDamme Posted May 30, 2011 Paid Members Share Posted May 30, 2011 If say Wayne Rooney were to sign for Real Madrid and struggled to adapt to the Spanish game, would he be a shit player? Â Â Â If Real Madrid had to sign a load of ex Man Utd players to get anything approaching an acceptable level of performance from him, and Revista De La Liga had to heavily edit their show every time he was on the ball to make him not look shit. Eventually there would come a point (probably after Real had added a set of "Rooney lights" to the Bernabeu) that you'd have to say Rooney is shit, for Real Madrid anyway. Â Â Â Sin Cara is shit, in WWE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members air_raid Posted May 30, 2011 Paid Members Share Posted May 30, 2011 Rooney is overrated in CMLL, I mean, at Man United anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Carbomb Posted May 30, 2011 Paid Members Share Posted May 30, 2011 Sin Cara is shit, in WWE. Â But that's the point of what we've been saying! Your statement is absolutely fine, whereas Pitcos seems to be saying that he's shit, full stop, because of his WWE work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cum Doctor Posted May 30, 2011 Share Posted May 30, 2011 Sin Cara is basically shit because he hasn't spent any time in developmental. That's it. But here's the key thing in this arguement. He's shit right now, and I have absolutely no interest in watching him, and that's the important thing. The important thing isn't what he did in a promotion that PITCOS hasn't probably even seen one match from. It's what he is doing now and thanks to WWE's impatience, he's shit. Â Personally, if I never see him again, I'll be quite happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Carbomb Posted May 30, 2011 Paid Members Share Posted May 30, 2011 Sin Cara is basically shit because he hasn't spent any time in developmental. That's it. But here's the key thing in this arguement. He's shit right now, and I have absolutely no interest in watching him, and that's the important thing. The important thing isn't what he did in a promotion that PITCOS hasn't probably even seen one match from. It's what he is doing now and thanks to WWE's impatience, he's shit. Personally, if I never see him again, I'll be quite happy.  Again - that's fine, but this is where use of language is important. If you post that "he's shit" unequivocally, with no sorts of caveats or contexts, you're going to draw argument from people who've seen his previous work and think he's good. It's not "making excuses", it's valid reasoning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cum Doctor Posted May 30, 2011 Share Posted May 30, 2011 Sin Cara is basically shit because he hasn't spent any time in developmental. That's it. But here's the key thing in this arguement. He's shit right now, and I have absolutely no interest in watching him, and that's the important thing. The important thing isn't what he did in a promotion that PITCOS hasn't probably even seen one match from. It's what he is doing now and thanks to WWE's impatience, he's shit. Personally, if I never see him again, I'll be quite happy.  If you post that "he's shit" unequivocally, with no sorts of caveats or contexts, you're going to draw argument from people who've seen his previous work and think he's good.  That's their problem. Not his.  It's not "making excuses", it's valid reasoning.  I certainly don't like how PITCOS has basically disregarded that he might need time to adapt. Of course, he seems to have backtracked on this a fair bit in the Bret Hart post. I think even he would probably admit that's been a problem, even if he would never admit that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Carbomb Posted May 30, 2011 Paid Members Share Posted May 30, 2011 Sin Cara is basically shit because he hasn't spent any time in developmental. That's it. But here's the key thing in this arguement. He's shit right now, and I have absolutely no interest in watching him, and that's the important thing. The important thing isn't what he did in a promotion that PITCOS hasn't probably even seen one match from. It's what he is doing now and thanks to WWE's impatience, he's shit. Personally, if I never see him again, I'll be quite happy.  If you post that "he's shit" unequivocally, with no sorts of caveats or contexts, you're going to draw argument from people who've seen his previous work and think he's good.  That's their problem. Not his.  Who's talking about problems? It's a discussion topic, and either way, that's a ridiculous comment to make. If it's unclear and people have misunderstood him, it's not "their problem" - they're not mindreaders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty Eddie Posted May 30, 2011 Share Posted May 30, 2011 Hey, does anyone remember these guys... Â Scott Steiner. He had a hilarious run in WWE in around 2002/3. He fell off the apron against Test and fell on his arse against Triple H. He is shit. Â What about Ernest "The Cat" Miller. He had a brief run in WWE where he just came out, spouted some silly shit and did a dance every week for a couple of months. He was shit. Â How about The Ultimate Warrior. This jobroni stunk up WCW in 1998 and had a wank match with Hulk Hogan. Warrior is shit. Â Anyone see Randy Savage in TNA. What a fucking rubbish worker he was. Randy Savage is shit. Â Â Â Â (One or more of these workers may have had success at other times or in other companies, but who gives a fuck about any of that!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Ron Simmons Posted May 30, 2011 Paid Members Share Posted May 30, 2011 An example of Averno v Mistico rom earlier this year in Japan. http://youtu.be/m_ZUiebcJYA To a Japanese audience that match might have been fantastic, I don't know enough about Japanese wrestling to say otherwise, but Jesus...what a snooze fest. I don't know if this was a random example of their work together, or an example of their best work but I don't see that translating well to Western audiences at all, it really wasn't a good showcase of Sin Cara's talents, if that's why WWE are wanting to sign the guy. And Averno has a terrible look, he's like a rather colourful gimp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members JNLister Posted May 30, 2011 Paid Members Share Posted May 30, 2011 Tengo, desde hace muchos a Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Fox Piss Posted May 30, 2011 Paid Members Share Posted May 30, 2011 Hey, does anyone remember these guys... Scott Steiner. He had a hilarious run in WWE in around 2002/3. He fell off the apron against Test and fell on his arse against Triple H. He is shit.  What about Ernest "The Cat" Miller. He had a brief run in WWE where he just came out, spouted some silly shit and did a dance every week for a couple of months. He was shit.  How about The Ultimate Warrior. This jobroni stunk up WCW in 1998 and had a wank match with Hulk Hogan. Warrior is shit.  Anyone see Randy Savage in TNA. What a fucking rubbish worker he was. Randy Savage is shit.     (One or more of these workers may have had success at other times or in other companies, but who gives a fuck about any of that!)  BINGO.  I really don't see why there is so much hate for Sin Cara. Even with his botches his more entertaining than most of the roster.  I think as time goes on he will get better and stay around the mid card level for some time.  You think people would give him time instead of jumping on the bandwagon of hating on him. He brings something different unless you want the cookie cutter bland as fuck trunk wearing bores and nothing else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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