Paid Members Carbomb Posted May 30, 2011 Paid Members Share Posted May 30, 2011 No, Sin Cara is good You mustn't have seen him wrestle yet. Unless you're one of the "That was only shit because of Primo/Kidd/Sheamus/Miz/Riley/Whoever not knowing how to work. He'll be great when he wrestles Chavo" people, though the last pay-per-view should've put paid to that anyway. Â Why ignore the rest of his post? It was perfectly valid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Pitcos Posted May 30, 2011 Share Posted May 30, 2011 I addressed the part where he made excuses for Sin Cara being shit, Carbomb, I just didn't quote it (though I quoted The Miz doing the same thing). Â As to why I ignored the second paragraph: It was hyperbole about this other fella and I already addressed that in my initial post -- people also talked a good game about Sin Cara before he turned up, and he turned out to be shit, so why should those same people be believed when talking about how great this new lad is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Carbomb Posted May 30, 2011 Paid Members Share Posted May 30, 2011 I addressed the part where he made excuses for Sin Cara being shit, Carbomb, I just didn't quote it (though I quoted The Miz doing the same thing). Â I think that's being overly dismissive. The guy's watched eight years of Mistico/Sin Cara's work, so he's got his reasons for thinking that he's not shit, just having adaption problems. If someone like Cena or The Undertaker tanked in Mexico or Japan, would you say the guy's shit? I'm pretty sure you'd argue they needed to get used to the foreign style, and this would be a fair comment. Â Personally, I don't think Sin Cara's shit, but he really should've been sent to developmental for a long enough period, not just chucked on TV like that - struggling to fit the WWE style, especially given the more obvious and unique traits of lucha, was a problem I thought they'd have tried to deal with straight away. Â The Miz' post was massively wrong, though, I agree - having everybody "work their own style" is just asking for clusterfucks left, right and centre. WWE have their own style for a reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members ShortOrderCook Posted May 30, 2011 Paid Members Share Posted May 30, 2011 It's quite interesting to see these comments made that Sin Cara has been rushed to TV and WWE should be held at fault for that. When, i'm quite sure that many had a bit of a moan when he was first signed that he'll be sent to developmental for ages only to come up to the full roster conditioned to WWEs dull style. Â And it's been the same whenever WWE have snapped up a CM Punk, Kaval, Daniel Bryan or Seth Rollins and (wisely) let them develop in FCW first, rather than thrusting them straight on to TV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Pitcos Posted May 30, 2011 Share Posted May 30, 2011 I addressed the part where he made excuses for Sin Cara being shit, Carbomb, I just didn't quote it (though I quoted The Miz doing the same thing). Â I think that's being overly dismissive. The guy's watched eight years of Mistico/Sin Cara's work, so he's got his reasons for thinking that he's not shit, just having adaption problems. If someone like Cena or The Undertaker tanked in Mexico or Japan, would you say the guy's shit? I'm pretty sure you'd argue they needed to get used to the foreign style, and this would be a fair comment. Â Personally, I don't think Sin Cara's shit, but he really should've been sent to developmental for a long enough period, not just chucked on TV like that - struggling to fit the WWE style, especially given the more obvious and unique traits of lucha, was a problem I thought they'd have tried to deal with straight away. "Should have spent more time in developmental" is an excuse, it doesn't actually refute the notion that someone's bad. WWE is always bringing up crap from the developmentals and nobody gets in a huff about someone saying they're shit or not ready for TV. But they could've been a great luchadore/plasterer/air hostess/jockey/bouncer for years before joining the WWE system as well. It just doesn't matter what they've done before, what matters is if they're shit when they turn up on Sky Sports at half two in the morning. What matters is whether you can deliver the goods when you get to the big stage. Sin Cara's no more exempt from criticism than Kaitlyn or Titus O'Neill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Carbomb Posted May 30, 2011 Paid Members Share Posted May 30, 2011 I never made such complaints. I did think Daniel Bryan was already able to work WWE style matches, and to be fair, that was reflected in the fact they didn't have him in developmental as long as the others, but CM Punk, Kaval and the rest really did need it as far as I was concerned. And I do think they should have had Sin Cara there a while. Or, at the very least, have him work the house show circuit under Rey's tutelage - if there's anyone who knows about adapting from lucha to WWE, it's Rey. Â But to out-and-out dismiss Sin Cara as shit is wrong, IMO - he's a massive star in lucha, has made a ton of money there and has done so for several years; he's obviously not shit. But he also clearly can't adapt very well, and therefore should've been put under some kind of instruction or tutelage to enable him to adapt to WWE, rather than just been chucked on TV. Â It's not something that I overly blame WWE for, but I was surprised at the time - seems wildly out of character for them. If there's one thing I've never faulted them for, it's their need to put workers from outside into developmental since the end of WCW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bear Posted May 30, 2011 Share Posted May 30, 2011 That's really going to solve alot of problems isn't it? Sin cara won't adapt to wwe style when his opponent will be equally as unfamiliar with the wwe style, they might have a few good matches working lucha style but neither will benefit in the long run Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cum Doctor Posted May 30, 2011 Share Posted May 30, 2011 For me, it's taken Drew McIntyre a LONG time to adapt to wrestling in WWE. And he didn't even wrestle as different a style as Sin Cara, so it's not out of the realms of possibility that Sin Cara isn't shit and CAN deliver on a big stage if he is given the time to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Carbomb Posted May 30, 2011 Paid Members Share Posted May 30, 2011 That's really going to solve alot of problems isn't it? Sin cara won't adapt to wwe style when his opponent will be equally as unfamiliar with the wwe style, they might have a few good matches working lucha style but neither will benefit in the long run  Agreed. Hopefully, what they'll do is have a small feud between the two, maybe end up with them getting destroyed somehow, sent away for a while, and then brought back after a spell in developmental. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobra1000 Posted May 30, 2011 Share Posted May 30, 2011 It's not something that I overly blame WWE for, but I was surprised at the time - seems wildly out of character for them. If there's one thing I've never faulted them for, it's their need to put workers from outside into developmental since the end of WCW. Â I think it was because he got a good deal of media attention because of his signing so a significant reason he got on TV quick was to capitalise on that. I do still think someone could "injure" him and then he could go to development to transition in, and then he's got a ready made feud to launch into when he's ready. I'm sure there may be a language issue there too maybe in the ring, as there were rumours his English wasn't exactly great (not sure how true that is though) Â I like him, he is certainly something unique, but at the moment his matches look sloppy, he just points at people and he hasn't really done much of note. Â Also there are numerous guys in wwe that are shit at the moment who are seemingly not given critisicmwhether it be on here or elsewhere. For example Mason Ryan has a great look, but he lumbers about the ring and I don't see any real intensity in him, he's a bit shit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Pitcos Posted May 30, 2011 Share Posted May 30, 2011 But to out-and-out dismiss Sin Cara as shit is wrong, IMO - he's a massive star in lucha, has made a ton of money there and has done so for several years; he's obviously not shit. But he also clearly can't adapt very well, and therefore should've been put under some kind of instruction or tutelage to enable him to adapt to WWE, rather than just been chucked on TV. I never said he couldn't learn, or that he would always be shit. Anyone who says he's not shit now though is either a div or makes a living off Botchamania videos. Or just isn't watching his current work. Â Also there are numerous guys in wwe that are shit at the moment who are seemingly not given critisicmwhether it be on here or elsewhere. For example Mason Ryan has a great look, but he lumbers about the ring and I don't see any real intensity in him, he's a bit shit. He can't be shit though. He was a Gladiator and bodybuilder and other assorted things before getting to WWE, which means he must be brilliant. Even if he's shit. It's absolutely faulty logic, but it's what's going on with Sin Cara's fanbase. Gauntley would be proud of him. And to be fair, Ryan's not fucked up anywhere near as much as Cara has. Both of their pay-per-view matches last week had a few good laughs, but in Ryan's match, they were intentional. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reznor Posted May 30, 2011 Share Posted May 30, 2011 No, Sin Cara is good You mustn't have seen him wrestle yet. Unless you're one of the "That was only shit because of Primo/Kidd/Sheamus/Miz/Riley/Whoever not knowing how to work. He'll be great when he wrestles Chavo" people, though the last pay-per-view should've put paid to that anyway. Hey, if you want to pretend he's only been in existence as a wrestler for about 3 months then knock yourself out. Just so long as you're aware your opinion is pretty ill informed by the fact you've only saw him a handful of times. Plenty of talented guys haven't had the best of fortunes in the WWF/E, take Ultimo Dragon or 2 Cold Scorpio for instance. No one in their right mind would call them shit. You can't just authoritatively and categorically state that someone's awful based on a couple of months in the WWE, when you're so ignorant to anything they've done outside the confines of the 'WWE universe' Â As for Averno, what i said about him was in no way hyperbole. Im sure you'd find that none of my comments were particularly exaggerated or would raise the eyebrows of most lucha libre fans. I'd imagine the only opinion that could be up for debate was whether he really has overtaken Ultimo Guerrero or not. He is an extremely talented luchador and nothing will change that, regardless of whether he flourishes or does very little in the WWE. Â For what it's worth, unlike Averno, I never have thought Mistico was any kind of top worker, but in CMLL he was great in the role he was given, and i'm sure it won't be too hard to search and find me saying i was a bit apprehensive about him coming to the WWE because i wasn't confident he'd fit in well. I'm far from a Mistico fanboy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Pitcos Posted May 30, 2011 Share Posted May 30, 2011 Bret Hart has had what, about five or six televised WWE matches in the last year or so? Roughly as many as Sin Cara. And I can safely say Bret Hart is shit nowadays, even though I've seen his old stuff when he was good. "Sin Cara's not shit, because of [blahblahblah from history when he might not have been shit]" is a fallacious argument that you're only making because you know he's shit right now. Â Out of interest, at what point are you allowed to admit he's shit? If he's still the same in a month, two months, six months? Or does he have a perpetual free pass because of his old stuff? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members ShortOrderCook Posted May 30, 2011 Paid Members Share Posted May 30, 2011 That's a fucking ridiculous comparison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Green Posted May 30, 2011 Paid Members Share Posted May 30, 2011 Bret Hart has had what, about five or six televised WWE matches in the last year or so? Roughly as many as Sin Cara. And I can safely say Bret Hart is shit nowadays, even though I've seen his old stuff when he was good. "Sin Cara's not shit, because of [blahblahblah from history when he might not have been shit]" is a fallacious argument that you're only making because you know he's shit right now. Out of interest, at what point are you allowed to admit he's shit? If he's still the same in a month, two months, six months? Or does he have a perpetual free pass because of his old stuff? He's never allowed to admit it. Once you commit to being a fan of a wrestler on the internet, you're stuck defending him forever. That's why the whole Benoit murder was such a tough pill to swallow for some. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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