ultimo the great Posted May 30, 2011 Share Posted May 30, 2011 An example of Averno v Mistico rom earlier this year in Japan. http://youtu.be/m_ZUiebcJYA To a Japanese audience that match might have been fantastic, I don't know enough about Japanese wrestling to say otherwise, but Jesus...what a snooze fest. I don't know if this was a random example of their work together, or an example of their best work but I don't see that translating well to Western audiences at all, it really wasn't a good showcase of Sin Cara's talents, if that's why WWE are wanting to sign the guy. And Averno has a terrible look, he's like a rather colourful gimp. It was an average match the japanese fans didn't care about because neither is over, Mistico/Averno did enough to get by. It was on a special New Japan/CMLL co-production which was more of a novelty show than anything looking to be awesome.  This is the match that really started the Mistico/Averno feud back in 2005 (and now will never have a real end) Averno Vs. Mistico pt1 Averno Vs. Mistico pt2  Not sure why i'm posting it, if you don't really give a shit about either guy, don't understand/like the style it's pretty pointless. I doubt they'll ever have a match like this in WWE anyway, just the same reduced to a special few spots, fit in with everyone else they usually do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mackie Posted May 30, 2011 Share Posted May 30, 2011 I think the problem WWE is having is that they haven't realised why Rey is popular they seem to just assume its because he wears a mask and he's mexican. But Mysterio is over no matter where he is and he would be if he didn't wear a mask and when i watch Sin Cara who in the ring is better than Rey but WWE has never been all about in ring talent. Â Sin Cara needs to act the fan favourite not this mysterious masked guy BS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d-d-d-dAz Posted May 30, 2011 Share Posted May 30, 2011 Rey's over because he's a fucking incredible sympathetic babyface character, probably still the best in the world in spite of his often horrible offence. That translates into any language. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PepperPlunge Posted May 30, 2011 Share Posted May 30, 2011 I've not seen Over The Limit yet, but from what I've seen so far he's not shit. In his debut match against Primo however, he was taking too much offence. It was like they were trying to cut a standard match with a face comeback except few knew much about Sin Cara and so he was unlikely to get much reaction for his comeback. He should have been all over Primo (who's never on TV but had the upper hand) and showcasing what he could do. They have road agents for this sort of thing and they'd grossly misunderstood Sin Cara. Having matches against guys who can compliment his style will only help but I think his character isn't getting over too and despite how he improves in the ring, I think he'll struggle to get over with his character how it is at the moment. Â Chavo's been assigned the task of helping him adapt to the WWE style. He's not going to adapt overnight. That's why the task is there. He needs time and WWE need to figure out what they want to trim. They seem to be trying to make him mysterious but it doesn't really seem to be catching on. I don't understand the mood lighting. As exciting as it is, I'm very surprised WWE have let him have that top rope finish as it could be problematic for people to take. Primo helped botch it first time round. Â Saying he's shit is like the sensationalism that Torres is suddenly a shit player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Pitcos Posted May 30, 2011 Share Posted May 30, 2011 I think the issue is more that you're stating it as an absolute that he's shit, with his few months' work being the only basis on which to assess his work, rather than, say, "He may have been great in CMLL, but he's shit in WWE, and clearly needs to learn and adapt", which I think would be a fair statement. I'd have thought that would be obvious. I never said he'd always be shit, I said he is shit. Of course he could learn his trade and not be shit in the future. I'm hoping he does.  He's never allowed to admit it. Once you commit to being a fan of a wrestler on the internet, you're stuck defending him forever. That's why the whole Benoit murder was such a tough pill to swallow for some. I think that's probably true. Especially if someone's got a fetish for wrestlers of a particular nationality. When one of them breaks into the mainstream, even if they're crap, there's a certain section that will always pretend they're not. Paul Burchill is the biggest example that comes to mind.  Hey, does anyone remember these guys... Scott Steiner. He had a hilarious run in WWE in around 2002/3. He fell off the apron against Test and fell on his arse against Triple H. He is shit.  What about Ernest "The Cat" Miller. He had a brief run in WWE where he just came out, spouted some silly shit and did a dance every week for a couple of months. He was shit.  How about The Ultimate Warrior. This jobroni stunk up WCW in 1998 and had a wank match with Hulk Hogan. Warrior is shit.  Anyone see Randy Savage in TNA. What a fucking rubbish worker he was. Randy Savage is shit.     (One or more of these workers may have had success at other times or in other companies, but who gives a fuck about any of that!) lolol its funny cuz nobody anywhere -- especially tugtugs like Dirty Eddie -- has ever really said Ultimate Warrior, Ernest Miller or Scott Steiner was shit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty Eddie Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 lolol its funny cuz nobody anywhere -- especially tugtugs like Dirty Eddie -- has ever really said Ultimate Warrior, Ernest Miller or Scott Steiner was shit. Â So you are saying it's OK for you to be wrong about Sin Cara because other people have been wrong to make similar comments about other wrestlers in the past? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Carbomb Posted May 31, 2011 Paid Members Share Posted May 31, 2011 I think the issue is more that you're stating it as an absolute that he's shit, with his few months' work being the only basis on which to assess his work, rather than, say, "He may have been great in CMLL, but he's shit in WWE, and clearly needs to learn and adapt", which I think would be a fair statement. I'd have thought that would be obvious. I never said he'd always be shit, I said he is shit. Of course he could learn his trade and not be shit in the future. I'm hoping he does. Â It's not all that obvious; the way you worded the original statement and responses didn't really give that context, and I don't know you well enough to read between those particular lines. But fair enough. Â He's never allowed to admit it. Once you commit to being a fan of a wrestler on the internet, you're stuck defending him forever. That's why the whole Benoit murder was such a tough pill to swallow for some. I think that's probably true. Especially if someone's got a fetish for wrestlers of a particular nationality. When one of them breaks into the mainstream, even if they're crap, there's a certain section that will always pretend they're not. Paul Burchill is the biggest example that comes to mind. Â Not to speak for Reznor, but I think that's a bit of a straw man; I don't think you or Green would've said the same about CVD's fandom of The Cat when he came to WWE and did pretty much fuck-all, or of Butch's fandom of Barry Windham when he didn't do as well in the WWF as he did in WCW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Pitcos Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 If there was an ex-WCW wrestler that turned up in WWE and was two months of botchy shit, and Cleetus was trying to use his past work as evidence that he's not shit now, I'd quite rightly put it down to his WCW fetish. Green probably wouldn't though, the big sycophant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Carbomb Posted May 31, 2011 Paid Members Share Posted May 31, 2011 Well, I still wouldn't agree with your view, but fair play to you for being consistent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators PowerButchi Posted May 31, 2011 Moderators Share Posted May 31, 2011 Not to speak for Reznor, but I think that's a bit of a straw man; I don't think you or Green would've said the same about CVD's fandom of The Cat when he came to WWE and did pretty much fuck-all, or of Butch's fandom of Barry Windham when he didn't do as well in the WWF as he did in WCW. Â I'm the first to admit about "Fat Barry". He was a fucking waste of space between the end of his lone wolf run in WCW and his 1999 WCW return. I like the Blackjacks on the basis they looked cool and would go "DUUUUUUEEEEEEE!", but Fat Barry was fucking shite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Green Posted May 31, 2011 Paid Members Share Posted May 31, 2011 I think the issue is more that you're stating it as an absolute that he's shit, with his few months' work being the only basis on which to assess his work, rather than, say, "He may have been great in CMLL, but he's shit in WWE, and clearly needs to learn and adapt", which I think would be a fair statement. I'd have thought that would be obvious. I never said he'd always be shit, I said he is shit. Of course he could learn his trade and not be shit in the future. I'm hoping he does. Â It's not all that obvious; the way you worded the original statement and responses didn't really give that context, and I don't know you well enough to read between those particular lines. But fair enough. Â He's never allowed to admit it. Once you commit to being a fan of a wrestler on the internet, you're stuck defending him forever. That's why the whole Benoit murder was such a tough pill to swallow for some. I think that's probably true. Especially if someone's got a fetish for wrestlers of a particular nationality. When one of them breaks into the mainstream, even if they're crap, there's a certain section that will always pretend they're not. Paul Burchill is the biggest example that comes to mind. Â Not to speak for Reznor, but I think that's a bit of a straw man; I don't think you or Green would've said the same about CVD's fandom of The Cat when he came to WWE and did pretty much fuck-all, or of Butch's fandom of Barry Windham when he didn't do as well in the WWF as he did in WCW. All Cat did when he came to WWE was dance to his fucking awesome theme music. In doing that he was far more entertaining than Sin Cara has been since his debut, in my humble opinion. It's a bit of a ludicrous comparison though as Cat wasn't exactly pushed strong and barely did any in-ring work at all where as Sin Cara is getting the big push which revolves around his in-ring "mastery". Barry Windham is a better example I guess but unfortunately I'm not too familiar with his work and so cannot say to Butch or anyone else whether he was shit or not. I liked him in the West Texas Rednecks though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members CleetusVanDamme Posted May 31, 2011 Paid Members Share Posted May 31, 2011 To be fair to Sin Cara, he didn't get anywhere near as awesome an introductory vignette as this... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgwOZpPH1uY Â Â Â Anyway, we should be expecting this Averno guy to debut straight away, right?. I'd laugh if he ended up in FCW first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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