Mr Tibbs Posted October 23, 2013 Share Posted October 23, 2013 (edited) Dana always says that the fight saved the UFC and that's why he always holds in such high regard. That is such revisionist history by Dana. The UFC had drawn big buy rate with the 1st Shamrock/Ortiz fight (750,000 if I remember) and would have done another good number with the Liddell/Couture fight. They had already signed the contract with Spike for another season of TUF (they were advertising the tryouts) and the Kos/Leban fight had done a great number. In no way, shape or form would the UFC have gone out of business if the Bonner/Griffin fight had not occurred. It aided them on a path that they would have reached eventually. Dana just likes to spout that line to justify Bonners bullshit entry into the Hall of Fame (which is a joke). Don't get me wrong, I like Bonner (he was great at the London fan Expo) but no way should he be in the HOF and Frank Shamrock not be! Edited October 23, 2013 by Mr Tibbs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Egg Shen Posted October 23, 2013 Author Paid Members Share Posted October 23, 2013 im not quite sure on the story of the fight but im pretty sure the UFC were paying to be on Spike at that point and not the other way around, it was more a case of if TUF wasn't succesful on Spike they were gonna pull out. I aint sure on exact details or whatever. I don't think Dana would make that story up just to justify Bonnar being put into the Hall of Fame, surely it would easier just to not include Bonnar and not make that story up? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Tibbs Posted October 23, 2013 Share Posted October 23, 2013 im not quite sure on the story of the fight but im pretty sure the UFC were paying to be on Spike at that point and not the other way around, it was more a case of if TUF wasn't succesful on Spike they were gonna pull out. I aint sure on exact details or whatever. I don't think Dana would make that story up just to justify Bonnar being put into the Hall of Fame, surely it would easier just to not include Bonnar and not make that story up? But the show was a success, even before the Finale had taken place. The Leban/Kos fight drew great ratings and the rest of the series was a success. Why would Spike have pulled out of a show that was a proven ratings draw before the finale took place. The finale helped, but as I said they had already signed for another show before the finale took place. I never said that Dana made it up. I said that he's revised history to justify Bonners induction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Egg Shen Posted October 23, 2013 Author Paid Members Share Posted October 23, 2013 yeh ok, i see what your saying. I think it's still a case of that fight being the cherry on the top of what was a very succesful experiement for the UFC. Nearly all the guys in that season did very well with the the UFC, they've all been treated like royalty. The hall of fame thing, i can see why people object but it doesn't really bother me. Whilst Shamrock should be in it (and in fans minds he is), but i understand fully why he isn't. I Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimufctna24 Posted October 23, 2013 Share Posted October 23, 2013 The UFC had drawn big buy rate with the 1st Shamrock/Ortiz fight (750,000 if I remember) and would have done another good number with the Liddell/Couture fight. Tito vs Ken 1 drew between 100-150 if I recall right, and in 2002, a long way of the TUF boom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Tibbs Posted October 24, 2013 Share Posted October 24, 2013 The UFC had drawn big buy rate with the 1st Shamrock/Ortiz fight (750,000 if I remember) and would have done another good number with the Liddell/Couture fight. Tito vs Ken 1 drew between 100-150 if I recall right, and in 2002, a long way of the TUF boom. Ok mate, I got that wrong. However, the facts remain that the show had already been a ratings success, it was renewed for another season before the finale and the 2nd Liddell/Couture fight would still have drawn over 200,000 buys. So in no way, shape or form would the UFC have gone out of business if it had not have been for the TUF finale. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimufctna24 Posted October 24, 2013 Share Posted October 24, 2013 Ok mate, I got that wrong. However, the facts remain that the show had already been a ratings success, it was renewed for another season before the finale and the 2nd Liddell/Couture fight would still have drawn over 200,000 buys. So in no way, shape or form would the UFC have gone out of business if it had not have been for the TUF finale. I agree with that on the previous page. Forrest vs Bonnar I believe did help Spike get behind Live Shows and increase the popularity of the sport in America, so it did have some impact. Just not as much as some would have you believe. Liddel vs Couture drawing 250k was probably more significant, as it pretty much kick started the UFC PPV boom, which is still kicking 8 years later if GSP vs Diaz is any indicator. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members wandshogun09 Posted October 25, 2013 Paid Members Share Posted October 25, 2013 I don't know about the numbers but Lorenzo Fertitta himself has cited Ortiz vs Shamrock 1 at UFC 40 as a big factor in why he and his brother stuck with the UFC. They obviously saw money in the Tito vs Ken rivalry back then and of course, it paid dividends later with TUF 3 and the successful (yet hugely anti-climactic) second and third fights in 2006. UFC 40 was a big milestone in the UFC's survival, whether Dana wants to admit it or not. I'm no fan of Tito or Ken, but you have to give credit where it's due. Those two kept the UFC's pulse from flatlining at a time where the company wasn't exactly heaving with stars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimufctna24 Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 (edited) UFC 40 was a brief high for Dana and the boys, they did consider selling several times after that, as it did seem that it was a one off, and there was no consistent value in MMA on PPV. 2003 might be on of the worst years in UFC history commercially, maybe you could cite a year in the late 90's where things looked bleaker, but 2003 was a utter shambles. The Tank Abbot comeback flopped at the box office, the 10 year anniversary show had zero name value. Couture was a the only real high point as much as I knock old sleazy. Matt Hughes was at his peak, but could draw a dime at the box office with his wholesome image, it was only when the UFC showed him to be the prize prick he is on TUF that he became the "guy you pay to see get his butt kicked" Tim Sylvia existed still and was Champion, whilst Fedor ruled in Pride, the small American audience had to put up sloth boy giving out grandstanding challenges to Pride Heavies who were out of his league. The Heavyweight class once Ricco lost interest would fucking shite. Middleweight was pretty much dead other than them promoting Baroni, and 155lbs was on its way out. The less said about anything involving Cabbage, Tank and Kimo that year the better, Dana gambled on old gits having the same effect as Ken, he overestimated the value of MMA nostalgia outside Ken and Royce. It was only in 2005 where they started building blocks and proper stars, and as result the company found stability, 2004 they revamped their tired production a bit and it looked a lot better, as shite as the nu metal is now it was a lot worse pre 2004. But even in 2004 the company was taking it a day at a time, the Spike deal gave them something to concentrate on for growth, and it worked a treat. They built Liddel, Sleazy, Franklin, Hughes and then re-established Tito and Ken with the then vibrant TUF model. They finally found the right formula. But before that from 2002-2004 they just tried milking the nostalgia train, and making lame attempts at getting the UFC more publicity in America (which failed miserably) To prove my general point, if you watch UFC 50, Dana comes on and tells the audience that "we are not going to Japan later in the year, as we do not have a Heavyweight fight to offer the audience" Why they would go to Japan in late 2004 is anyone's guess, I think they wanted Mir vs Arlovski over there until Mir's accident, but even that I doubt would have set pulses racing in Japan. Edited October 25, 2013 by jimufctna24 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Egg Shen Posted November 12, 2013 Author Paid Members Share Posted November 12, 2013 (edited) the weird thing about all that is as a naive young fan, i was watching in them days when they were struggling (the first show i watched live was the 10th anniversary) i fucking loved everything about it. There was no if very little indication to the viewing fan that the UFC was in trouble in them days...now when you hear Dana talk about it he even says 'you have no idea how close we were to giving up', and there really was no indication of that. ...and Cabbage was awesome. Started reading Total MMA last night, looks like a fun little read...don't think it's gonna tell me much i don't know but it's broken down into nice little readable chunks. The early Gracie stuff is interesting, the whole thing reads kind of anti-Gracie but it reminded me of the old Gracie/Kimura fight which is seen as one of the pioneering MMA fights. a 2 minute piece on the fight Anyway's i went off on a little tangeant and read about Kimura, and came across the footage of his infamous pro wrestling match with Rikidozan...Rikidozan took business into his own hands and beat Kimura up for real (they were meant to wrestle to a draw), it wasn't in the script and apparently led to the murder of Rikidozan, absolute madnes! check it out: Goodnight Irene Rikidozan vs. Kimura What's insane about it is, althought Kimura was a noted real life shooter he basically allows Rikidozan (who was a pure pro wrestler to beat him up), he looks at the ref at one point as if to say 'why's he hitting me?' he even got up and shook the hand of Rikidozan after the fight and congratulated him. The Yakuza however were not so happy. Whilst looking at that i came across footage of Antonio Inoki losing his shit against a tubby eccentric strongman named The Great Antonio who refused to play ball in the wrestling ring, he regretted it: Goodnight Irene I know it's not strictly MMA but it's related, and i fucking loves shit like that. I love all that blurred reality in Japanese MMA/Wrestling, how everything just exists almost as one. They don't blink an eye when MMA fighters do pro wrestling and vice versa, it's all part of the game. Cracked.com artile - 5 Moments i Fake Wrestling That Got To Real - cool article that covers the incidents. Edited November 12, 2013 by Ebb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimufctna24 Posted November 12, 2013 Share Posted November 12, 2013 (edited) A few musings -Inoki battering the the Antonio was a bit of shock when I first saw it a few years back. Brutal stuff, that I did not have to be told was a shoot, it was that easy to tell something went haywire. -Total MMA is a great read for the chapter on Bob Sapp, in general its pretty good. The authors opinions on the Gracie's are very interesting. - Cabbage managed to have a exciting fight with Tim Sylvia, and put Arlovski on the map, I will give him that. The brawl with Tank's crew whilst embarrassing at the time, is in retrospect mildly amusing. He was pretty shit though, even for the standard of the time. Getting smacked by wooden plank by a mugger in London whilst preparing to fight for Cage Rage and getting beat by sideshow act Butterbean and a ancient Tank Abbot, sums up his career Edited November 12, 2013 by jimufctna24 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members wandshogun09 Posted November 12, 2013 Paid Members Share Posted November 12, 2013 I'd still watch Butterbean vs Roy Nelson or Mark Hunt today if they were booked. Is Butterbean still alive? He looked like a walking heart attack waiting to happen last time I saw him, and that must've been 2006/07. Whenever it was when he bashed up Sean O'Haire in Pride. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimufctna24 Posted November 12, 2013 Share Posted November 12, 2013 I'd still watch Butterbean vs Roy Nelson or Mark Hunt today if they were booked. Is Butterbean still alive? He looked like a walking heart attack waiting to happen last time I saw him, and that must've been 2006/07. Whenever it was when he bashed up Sean O'Haire in Pride. I swear they had Butterbean vs Hunt booked for Pride in 2006 in Vegas, then Hunt could not get a visa or something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Egg Shen Posted November 12, 2013 Author Paid Members Share Posted November 12, 2013 (edited) of course the 'Bean is alive. I was actually at the Cage Rage that Cabbage was meant to be on, he was booked to fight James Thompson but apparently got bottled the night before, i found out on route to London and was fucking gutted! of course they found a replacement for Cabbage: It actually started a fairly succesful little run for Neil Grove, considering he was getting up there in age at the time of that fight he's probably been amongst the most succesful UK heavyweights in MMA history (even though he's really South African). As for Tim Sylvia in his heyday, there were a lot of great moments: The Cabbage beating, the first two Arlovski fights, the Telligman knockout, KO'ing Ricco, shitting himself against Asseurio Silva, the Wes Sims feud! I'm quite ashamed to admit it but i always looked forward to a Tim Sylvia fight back in the day Edited November 12, 2013 by Ebb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deathrey Posted November 12, 2013 Share Posted November 12, 2013 Yep, Butterbean is still alive and kicking. Had his last MMA fight in 2011, and according to Wikipedia, still dabbles in a bit of prowrestling at the ripe ol'age of 47 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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