What keeps you watching?

[CavemanLynn]

Singling out one particular angle to represent entire eras of WWF/E is impossible. We've just come off an event that had a charred clown demon lose to a distraction caused by the spectre of an old flame oozing black blood, and a match built around a lifer getting a You Deserve It win at the big one.

I had the Hulkamania era sticker book, spent hours watching other kids play Wrestlefest, and even made my own hand drawn wrestling magazines, despite never watching a match from that time. I think my first exposure to it was Pat Sharp showing some WCW Worldwide, and maybe Doink being given Dink by Santa round a mate's house. I didn't start watching til my little brother started getting Raw rip videos off a mate every Tuesday. But if I do watch some old stuff, it'll be 80s WWF and WCW/NWA. And that's not just for the in ring action, but the whole vibe of the events. Sure, Macho vs Warrior and Piper vs Bret are stellar matches, but it's the swell of the crowd when Elizabeth gets in the ring that brings a tear to my eye, or the thousands screaming at Piper holding the bell that puts me on the edge of my seat. The only moment that came close to that in recent years was the List of Jericho turn.

I can't put my finger on why, but when I've tried to watch a WWE show over the last 10 years or so, there's a constant sense that everyone's embarrassed to be there. Fun gimmicks don't get over because no one onscreen is laughing along. Except Cole, who's so bland and regimented, he might be genuinely emotional and still come across fake.

It's why AEW is my thing right now. The last year's events, from the pandemic to Brodie Lee's passing, have shone a light on a greater sense of community there, and there's a real feeling that everyone wants everyone else to get over. For that reason, as well as the wealth and variety of talent they have, Dynamite is that much more fun to me. I've heard good things on here about Impact, but Eddie Edwards' neon Dreamer act and Lashley off Wish grunting in a quiet room doesn't entice me.

Case in point: Best Friends. They would never have worked in WWE. Cassidy would've been portrayed as lazy or narcoleptic and would've been speared in half and forgotten about. Trent's mum would've been portrayed as a weakness rather than a strength, and he'd have likely been split from Taylor and Shelton Benjamined out if the midcard. No one would've believed Statlander was an alien - it would've been 'mind games.' There's no way they would've become the loveable Stranger Things gang they are (and it's only a matter of time until Chuck Taylor yells of Statlander "She's our friend and she's CRAZY!").

There's also the excitement of seeing new young talent on the rise without knowing they'd be plugging away for a decade 'paying their dues' in the undercard. Darby Allin and Jungle Boy are both being spotlighted RIGHT NOW, despite having a combined age of barely 50. Their gimmicks feel genuine and are being capitalised on, and that makes for wrestling that's engaging on both an in ring level and meta level.

Another thing that keeps me coming back is that, as an aging gym rat and former worker, I'll always gave that It Could Be Me One Day delusion that I get to live out via guys like Kazarian or Trent?. Of course I couldn't, but it's an extra level of enjoyment, that Spider-Man wish fulfilment feeling. I couldn't kick a football or swing a bat, but I've been in a couple of barnies!

To link this to a couple of other threads, I think I always knew it was fake, but never cared because it never mattered to me. Yes, there's a lot of illogical and unathletic dross out there, but When It's Good, It's Great.

[air_raid]

I think there’s a world of difference between The Undertaker and Kane doing wacky shit to each other with special effects because their characters are supernatural monsters and we’re conditioned to accept it, and completely being able to suspend disbelief (example) when Kane promised to set himself on fire if he didn’t beat Steve Austin because he’s two months removed from a PPV where he was set on fire, versus a match on PPV between two relatively straight wrestlers in Rollins and Rey where they push “Someone’s  going to have their eye pulled out!!” - which is just groan-inducing for the level of “No they won’t, don’t talk bollocks.”

[Michael_3165]

5 hours ago, BomberPat said:

Suzuki has done more outright comedy and silliness than anyone mentioned in this thread.

Oh don't tell me that! I'll avoid that. I love Suzuki in all his badass-ness 

[air_raid]

1 hour ago, Michael_3165 said:

Oh don't tell me that! I'll avoid that. I love Suzuki in all his badass-ness 

His being a hard nutcase is what makes his comedy brilliant. He’s the best man on Earth.

[Jimmyjokerz]

I honestly don’t know what keeps me watching wwe at this point - maybe just habit? ! I never watch raw or Smackdown and just check out the ppv’s, but even then it can be hard! Their product is terrible (hot take) but they are making more money than ever. I’m sure they are at a point where they are making so much money selling content, they aren’t bothered how good the content is that they put out. How long will his last though - are they still going to get massive rights deals when the ratings keep dropping?! I do like NXT, and even New Japan has lost some of its shine

[Jazzy G]

I still watch because when it's good it's good. I've managed to watch every WWE PPV this year, and they've not been too bad, but I have been enjoying Dynamite and Impact this year. I should really start trying to watch Dark & Elevation.

Edited April 26, 2021 by jazzygeofferz

[Guest]

15 hours ago, Michael_3165 said:

Oh don't tell me that! I'll avoid that. I love Suzuki in all his badass-ness 

Na go look for him piledriving robots in the middle of a stream. It works cause you know he’s a mental hard man, he just piledrives whatever is in front of him at any given time 

[Chris B]

On 4/25/2021 at 10:38 AM, Michael_3165 said:

The viewership tends to give credence to the fact wrestling is at its lowest point in history. I am well aware that my nostalgia clouds my judgment and I probably would have felt the same in 1994 if I were my age then. Thing is, I don't believe in the characters anymore. Bret Hart looked like a serious wrestler. Austin looked like a badass and acted the part even up until today where he still has an aura of believability. Vader looked like a fuckin beast. The only person I would feel remotely intimidated by in 2021 is Brock Lesnar, Samoa Joe and maybe Reigns. Even Strowman (who is a fuckin giant and should be intimidating) doesn't hold much in that sense. Thankfully NJPW still have people who look badass and take things seriously - I wouldn't fuck with Suzuki, the history is generally respected and they don't do anything outright nonsensical. 

You may have a point that wrestling has always been goofy and had stupid shit happen in it and my becoming an adult has exposed it to me in a more "in your face" kind of way. All I want is wrestling to be serious, a struggle and a contest by good guys and bad guys who hate each other's guts. I want the bad guy to get the advantage and the good guy to eventually win out and there be a feel good moment (even if it takes a year). I don't see why that is so difficult for companies to grasp and book. And I also acknowledge that my nostalgia demands are unlikely to be the norm or draw what they would have done 30 years ago. 

The thing is, I genuinely think that the more serious wrestling presents itself as, the less it has to offer. The more you try to present wrestling as serious, the more fake it seems. Nobody was coming from UFC to WWE thinking 'but how will Brock Lesnar fare against John Cena?'.  All it does is invite the comparison with 'real' sports. 

However, as the big, silly, ridiculous thing that wrestling is? That's not about being 'believable' - it's about suspending disbelief. In that context, a lot of what would be nonsense in reality can be fine. Weight classes don't mean as much. If I can suspend disbelief when watching Rocket Raccoon in Marvel movies, then I can believe that The Undertaker or The Fiend have magical abilities

Allowing wrestling to be itself, with all the high-flying, ridiculousness and even silliness that it is, it's a much easier sell. Now I'm watching something unique that's its own thing. I'm not limiting it to being a pretend version of something else.

That's not to say anything goes, though. A wrestling show, as with any form of fiction, has its own internal reality. When something breaks those rules too carelessly, that brings people out of what they're watching. That's the version of taking it seriously that matters - not that it's presented as more real, but that the internal reality is something that it respects. Over time, these things can be explained or forgiven (like 'Community' and the gas-leak year).

It does make it more difficult to keep watching if you end up feeling like a show isn't respecting the reality they'd created. For you, it might be that the bigger and more bad-ass wrestlers are the ones that are the best, and it's difficult seeing wrestlers you don't perceive like that being focused on. But that didn't make one 'wrestling' and the other not 'wrestling'. It just makes it wrestling you like or wrestling you don't like. In the same way, as a fan of horror, there are horror films that are to my taste and horror films that aren't - but I wouldn't argue that the ones I don't like 'aren't horror'.

Wrestling is a magnificent and daft thing. When it's done well, it's an outright art-form that lets us suspend disbelief, whether it's realistic or not. (Oh, and Minoru Suzuki being a weirdo goofball as well as a scary motherfucker is exactly why I find him so awesome. He's so much of a badass, he doesn't care if he does silly shit. That rocks.)

Edited April 27, 2021 by Chris B

[BomberPat]

1 hour ago, Chris B said:

However, as the big, silly, ridiculous thing that wrestling is? That's not about being 'believable' - it's about suspending disbelief. In that context, a lot of what would be nonsense in reality can be fine. Weight classes don't mean as much. If I can suspend disbelief when watching Rocket Raccoon in Marvel movies, then I can believe that The Undertaker or The Fiend have magical abilities

While I largely agree with you, I would say the problem here is the lack of consistency in WWE's internal logic - when you have, seemingly, an actual demon like The Fiend running around with magical powers, or The Undertaker bursting through the ring and "dragging people to Hell" through a hole in the ring, why aren't the guys in the other matches concerned about it? It's like when you get a Christmas special of a sitcom that just casually reveals that Santa Claus is real in this universe; part of you is left trying to figure out what the implications of that are for every other episode when it's never mentioned. The internal logic of the Marvel Universe allows for Rocket Raccoon to exist, but the internal logic of wrestling doesn't really allow for the existence of The Fiend except when The Fiend happens to be on-screen. As a rule, I tend to think that people are prepared to make one jump of logic at a time, but not two - so they can accept Rocket Raccoon, but if in the next movie Rocket Raccoon can suddenly fire lasers out of his eyes, they can't suspend disbelief any more. They'll say, "hang on, Rocket Raccoon can't do that", even though Rocket Raccoon is an entirely fictional construct and can do whatever the writers decide he can do. The Fiend has long since jumped squarely into "firing lasers" territory.

The thing with "real" is that it's not really what people want. If you see someone powerbombed off a ladder through a table, and then they pop right back up on to their feet, you'd complain that the no selling makes that spot "unrealistic" - but we've all just watched someone really get thrown off a ladder and really go through the table, and then really stand right back up again, so the reality is that they were able to do that with no problems. What people are asking for more of is the illusion. I don't think that the majority of modern wrestlers do all that much to undermine the central illusion of wrestling, because everything they do is still contested as a wrestling match, and ideally one where whether they win or lose matters. 

Convincing fans that wrestling is "real" is a fool's game, and I don't think the majority of the audience have believed that it's real for over a hundred years. But one thing wrestling has going for it that's unlike any other entertainment is that it can create that sense of, to quote Johnny Valentine, "I might not be able to convince you that wrestling's real, but I can convince you that I am". You know the match is worked, but you still think a match with Brock Lesnar will be a tougher evening's work for a wrestler than a match with The Miz, and maybe part of you even thinks that things could get a little out of control and Lesnar start "shooting", even though he's never actually done that, but his performance makes you believe that he might. You believe that Stone Cold Steve Austin is everything he says he is on screen, because his performances makes you believe him. Whether it's a match getting a little stiff, or a too-personal comment in a promo, wrestling has the ability to temporarily pull you out of your suspended disbelief and say "I know it's all fixed, but this bit feels more real than the rest".
That said, that's just one storytelling tool in wrestling's arsenal, and a very powerful one, but I don't think it needs to be the only one. I've seen people in tears at the retirement or "death" of CHIKARA characters, even though that wrestler obviously isn't really dead, or the person under the mask is going to continue wrestling under a completely different gimmick. But the emotions elicited are no less real because of that knowledge. When Yoda dies in Return Of The Jedi, there's no point saying "it doesn't matter, it's only a puppet", because that's a betrayal of the narrative, and of the whole conceit of cinema. Wrestling's no different. If people believe in the truth of the story you're telling, they don't need to believe that it's literally real. 

[Chris B]

10 minutes ago, BomberPat said:

While I largely agree with you, I would say the problem here is the lack of consistency in WWE's internal logic - when you have, seemingly, an actual demon like The Fiend running around with magical powers, or The Undertaker bursting through the ring and "dragging people to Hell" through a hole in the ring, why aren't the guys in the other matches concerned about it? It's like when you get a Christmas special of a sitcom that just casually reveals that Santa Claus is real in this universe; part of you is left trying to figure out what the implications of that are for every other episode when it's never mentioned. The internal logic of the Marvel Universe allows for Rocket Raccoon to exist, but the internal logic of wrestling doesn't really allow for the existence of The Fiend except when The Fiend happens to be on-screen. As a rule, I tend to think that people are prepared to make one jump of logic at a time, but not two - so they can accept Rocket Raccoon, but if in the next movie Rocket Raccoon can suddenly fire lasers out of his eyes, they can't suspend disbelief any more. They'll say, "hang on, Rocket Raccoon can't do that", even though Rocket Raccoon is an entirely fictional construct and can do whatever the writers decide he can do. The Fiend has long since jumped squarely into "firing lasers" territory.

Don't get me wrong - there's a LOAD of stuff they can do that can break it. As you say, 'firing lasers' territory. But we do, for the most part, accept things like The Undertaker or Su Yung/Susie, despite the fact it's obviously not real. The Fiend may be a particularly bad example, and I've not seen that much of him. But I'd say, for the most part, magical characters bend the belief rather than breaking it. Totally agree about two jumps at a time - that seems like a good rule of thumb.