andrew "the ref" coyne Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 Summer Slam was a big success, but Extreme Rules did about 260k buys (the previous year did 209k), which isn't bad, these days, but for Lesnar/Cena I think they'd be after much more.  I'm not following your logic tbh.  Although this is a very simplified way of looking at it, if you want to judge the success of Lesnar by buyrates then....  Extreme Rules 2011: 209,000 buys Extreme Rules 2012: 263,000 buys Difference in buys: 54,000 buys  Summerslam 2011: 301,000 buys Summerslam 2012: 350,000 buys Difference in buys: 49,000 buys  Theoretically, Lesnar did more for Extreme Rules than he did for Summerslam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 Hopefully he's spent some of his time away getting back into pro wrestling shape. He came back looking like he did when he fought in the UFC, which is fair enough when the emphasis isn't on how you look on television. If WWE are paying him the $5 million he's supposedly getting the least he can do is try to get into something like the shape he was in previously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members ColinBollocks Posted December 30, 2012 Paid Members Share Posted December 30, 2012 Summer Slam was a big success, but Extreme Rules did about 260k buys (the previous year did 209k), which isn't bad, these days, but for Lesnar/Cena I think they'd be after much more.  I'm not following your logic tbh.  Although this is a very simplified way of looking at it, if you want to judge the success of Lesnar by buyrates then....  Extreme Rules 2011: 209,000 buys Extreme Rules 2012: 263,000 buys Difference in buys: 54,000 buys  Summerslam 2011: 301,000 buys Summerslam 2012: 350,000 buys Difference in buys: 49,000 buys  Theoretically, Lesnar did more for Extreme Rules than he did for Summerslam. ...But Cena/Lesnar still did 263,000 buys.  According to Diamond Dave Meltzer, WWE were very underwhelmed by the number. As I said, 263k would normally be a good number, but not for a show featuring a returning Brock Lesnar taking on their big star. It's a 'dream match' they gave away for a pretty ordinary number.  Which brings me back to my original point, for WWE to capitalize on Lesnar they'll probably only bring him in for the shows a larger number of people are willing to invest money in, not waste time by giving away big matches (and using up his limited dates) for 263,000 buys. If they did Triple H/Lesnar at Over The Limit, the match probably would have done well to get 260,000, rather than the 350,000 they got at SummerSlam, for example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Pitcos Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 If he's on a 35 day deal, then 'using up his limited dates' isn't an issue. He can promote a match with 2 or 3 appearances. He could've wrestled on every other pay-per-view over the latest year. The issue seems to be that they don't want to overexpose him and risk diminishing his drawing ability. Or that he agreed to 30+ dates but only three or four matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 If he's on a 35 day deal, then 'using up his limited dates' isn't an issue. He can promote a match with 2 or 3 appearances. He could've wrestled on every other pay-per-view over the latest year. The issue seems to be that they don't want to overexpose him and risk diminishing his drawing ability. Or that he agreed to 30+ dates but only three or four matches. Thus far he's basically wrestled as much per year as he fought per year with the UFC. Not sure if that's significant as far as what kind of deal he has right enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members ColinBollocks Posted December 30, 2012 Paid Members Share Posted December 30, 2012 I'm sure it's a combination of them not wanting to over expose Lesnar, and them looking at Extreme Rules and realizing that if they're having Lesnar come in to work these big matches, it's best to save them for the big shows. Â For the same reason, I can't see The Rock wrestling at Survivor Series, any time soon. Â EDIT: Champion speller! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Van Dammer Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 Which brings me back to my original point, for WWE to capitalize on Lesnar they'll probably only bring him in for the shows a larger number of people are willing to invest money in, not waste time by giving away big matches (and using up his limited dates) for 263,000 buys. If they did Triple H/Lesnar at Over The Limit, the match probably would have done well to get 260,000, rather than the 350,000 they got at SummerSlam, for example. Â Why? Youre probably right and they will only use him on the big shows but using Brock Lesnar at a Wrestlemania that will probably feature The Rock, The Undertaker, John Cena and maybe even Triple H probably wont boost the buy rate as much as it would to a PPV like Over the Limit, TLC or another B show which would only draw a generic number of basic buyers. The big shows will generally do well anyway, especially Wrestlemania. IMO the Extreme Rules buyrate should be seen as a big success, not only did it draw 50k more buyers than the previous year but PPV buys are generally declining so it really did even better than that. Im not really sure what more they would expect on a PPV in 2012 to deem his return a success? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Pitcos Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 The big shows will generally do well anyway, especially Wrestlemania. Waste of time and money for them bring The Rock back then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Van Dammer Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 The big shows will generally do well anyway, especially Wrestlemania. Waste of time and money for them bring The Rock back then. Â I meant for exactly that point, there are always special attractions lined up like The Rock and even Taker wrestling is a Mania special attraction now. If Lesnar is or isnt on the card in April, it wont make, % wise, as big a difference in buy rates as it would for a lesser PPV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members ColinBollocks Posted December 30, 2012 Paid Members Share Posted December 30, 2012 Which brings me back to my original point, for WWE to capitalize on Lesnar they'll probably only bring him in for the shows a larger number of people are willing to invest money in, not waste time by giving away big matches (and using up his limited dates) for 263,000 buys. If they did Triple H/Lesnar at Over The Limit, the match probably would have done well to get 260,000, rather than the 350,000 they got at SummerSlam, for example. Â Why? Youre probably right and they will only use him on the big shows but using Brock Lesnar at a Wrestlemania that will probably feature The Rock, The Undertaker, John Cena and maybe even Triple H probably wont boost the buy rate as much as it would to a PPV like Over the Limit, TLC or another B show which would only draw a generic number of basic buyers. The big shows will generally do well anyway, especially Wrestlemania. IMO the Extreme Rules buyrate should be seen as a big success, not only did it draw 50k more buyers than the previous year but PPV buys are generally declining so it really did even better than that. Im not really sure what more they would expect on a PPV in 2012 to deem his return a success? Well that's good for you, but WWE (the company trying to make money) didn't see it that way. 263,000 buys is crap for a match like Cena/Lesnar. The SummerSlam number doing so well highlights why it's important to save your big matches for your big shows. There are only so many 'proper wrestlers' out there that WWE can book Lesnar against, wasting them on 'B' shows and getting around 263k is a silly business move, when they can save them for the big three and draw some big money. Â Also, PPV numbers are generally up this year. Â The big shows will generally do well anyway, especially Wrestlemania. Waste of time and money for them bring The Rock back then. Â I meant for exactly that point, there are always special attractions lined up like The Rock and even Taker wrestling is a Mania special attraction now. If Lesnar is or isnt on the card in April, it wont make, % wise, as big a difference in buy rates as it would for a lesser PPV. 'Mania isn't just about drawing another buyrate, they're trying to break records. They've also got a stadium to fill. Loading up the card ensures they get the numbers they're after (and 'Mania isn't the 'sure thing' some folk think it is, it's had plenty of disappointing numbers). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sichadelic Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 I have no interest in seeing Lesnar/HHH again, nor Lesnar/Taker. Seen it all before. Â Lesnar/Ryback however is new, and could be good - although it does come with a risk of repeating the mistakes made with Lesnar/Goldberg, which even Austin as ref/enforcer couldn't save. Â Personall the main reason I prefer Lesnar/Ryback is it frees up HHH to do the Evolution/Shield thing - and also allows Taker .vs. Punk. Â But the problem with it, is with Orton and Ryback tied up, we're left without a viable opponent for Big Show.... Unless he's going to face Ziggler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Van Dammer Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 Which brings me back to my original point, for WWE to capitalize on Lesnar they'll probably only bring him in for the shows a larger number of people are willing to invest money in, not waste time by giving away big matches (and using up his limited dates) for 263,000 buys. If they did Triple H/Lesnar at Over The Limit, the match probably would have done well to get 260,000, rather than the 350,000 they got at SummerSlam, for example. Â Why? Youre probably right and they will only use him on the big shows but using Brock Lesnar at a Wrestlemania that will probably feature The Rock, The Undertaker, John Cena and maybe even Triple H probably wont boost the buy rate as much as it would to a PPV like Over the Limit, TLC or another B show which would only draw a generic number of basic buyers. The big shows will generally do well anyway, especially Wrestlemania. IMO the Extreme Rules buyrate should be seen as a big success, not only did it draw 50k more buyers than the previous year but PPV buys are generally declining so it really did even better than that. Im not really sure what more they would expect on a PPV in 2012 to deem his return a success? Well that's good for you, but WWE (the company trying to make money) didn't see it that way. 263,000 buys is crap for a match like Cena/Lesnar. The SummerSlam number doing so well highlights why it's important to save your big matches for your big shows. There are only so many 'proper wrestlers' out there that WWE can book Lesnar against, wasting them on 'B' shows and getting around 263k is a silly business move, when they can save them for the big three and draw some big money. Â How can you say Summerslam number did 'so well' when you think Extreme Rules did so badly? Both had roughly the same increases on previous years. PPVs generally sell based on name value, more people will buy Royal Rumbles, Summerslams and Wrestlemania out of habit because of the name rather than Over the Limits, Night of Champions and Extreme Rules. Think about what these shows would have drawn had Lesnar not been on the card, Summerslam still would have drawn atleast 275-300k whereas Extreme Rules could easily have slipped down to the 175k range as some B PPVs have done in recent years. What the ceiling buys for these PPVs? Say Taker wins the title at Wrestlemania this year and defends it against WWE Champion The Rock at Extreme Rules, potentially the biggest match in 5 years, maybe longer. Does that PPV really smash through and do 450-500k buys? I dont think so personally, I dont think the WWE has that level of interest to do that these days. Â Brock Lesnar did more for the Extreme Rules buyrate than he did for the Summerslam buy rate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members ColinBollocks Posted December 30, 2012 Paid Members Share Posted December 30, 2012 How can you say Summerslam number did 'so well' when you think Extreme Rules did so badly? WWE made significantly more money off the SummerSlam match. Easy enough.  Also, I said 263k would be a good number, normally, just underwhelming for Lesnar/Cena. WWE seem to agree.  Both had roughly the same increases on previous years. PPVs generally sell based on name value, more people will buy Royal Rumbles, Summerslams and Wrestlemania out of habit because of the name rather than Over the Limits, Night of Champions and Extreme Rules. Think about what these shows would have drawn had Lesnar not been on the card, Summerslam still would have drawn atleast 275-300k whereas Extreme Rules could easily have slipped down to the 175k range as some B PPVs have done in recent years. What the ceiling buys for these PPVs? Say Taker wins the title at Wrestlemania this year and defends it against WWE Champion The Rock at Extreme Rules, potentially the biggest match in 5 years, maybe longer. Does that PPV really smash through and do 450-500k buys? I dont think so personally, I dont think the WWE has that level of interest to do that these days. Brock Lesnar did more for the Extreme Rules buyrate than he did for the Summerslam buy rate Eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrew "the ref" coyne Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 WWE made significantly more money off the SummerSlam match. Easy enough.  No they didn't. The only way you can measure Lesnar's success is to measure the number of extra ppv buys (again simplified, but for the purposes of this conversation I'm not getting into event tickets, merchandise etc, nor am I looking into any internal / external factors that also effected PPV rates).  Lesnar did not bring in as many extra buys for Summerslam as he did for Extreme Rules. When you add to this the extra promotion they put into Summerslam promoting Lesnar's involvement, the profit dwindles further.  Extreme Rules had the advantage of it featuring Lesnar's first WWE match back, but still, Extreme Rules still made more extra income than Summerslam. Easily.  Also, I said 263k would be a good number, normally, just underwhelming for Lesnar/Cena. WWE seem to agree.  You keep saying this. Prove it. Because come the year end financial reports they are going to brag about how Lesnar's involvement increased the PPV order rate by 30% at Extreme Rules.  Besides even if you are right, us lowly mortal wrestling fans still have the right to disagree. A low end PPV bringing in an additional $2.5 million in income is something to be VERY proud of.  Both had roughly the same increases on previous years. PPVs generally sell based on name value, more people will buy Royal Rumbles, Summerslams and Wrestlemania out of habit .... Brock Lesnar did more for the Extreme Rules buyrate than he did for the Summerslam buy rate Eh?  Despite your "eh" implying they are mutually inexclusive statements, they're not.  Both PPV's roughly saw a increase of 50,000 (Extreme Rules actually did slightly more)..... which for Extreme Rules was an increase of about 30-ish% and for Summerslam was a increase of about 16%. Yes both PPVs saw roughly the same increase in buys (50,000 each) but Lesnar did more for ER because it dosen't have anywhere near as much promotion as Summerslam. Thus made more additional income. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members ColinBollocks Posted December 31, 2012 Paid Members Share Posted December 31, 2012 Oi vey! I'm going in circles here. This is my last post on this topic, as I've made my point (and who can be arsed?!).  Extreme Rules had the advantage of it featuring Lesnar's first WWE match back, but still, Extreme Rules still made more extra income than Summerslam. Easily. SummerSlam made WWE more money, though, despite all the 'ads and shit'. As I keep stating, 263k is normally not a bad number (for a 'B' show) but for a supposed 'dream match' it's quite average, at best - that is WWE's fault for putting it on a 'B' show.  You keep saying this. Prove it. Because come the year end financial reports they are going to brag about how Lesnar's involvement increased the PPV order rate by 30% at Extreme Rules. Besides even if you are right, us lowly mortal wrestling fans still have the right to disagree. A low end PPV bringing in an additional $2.5 million in income is something to be VERY proud of. Well of course WWE are going to put a positive spin on any kind of increase, that still doesn't mean they weren't looking for a better number. They still crow, publicly, about how well Raw does in certain demos, even if Vince is going mental because, overall, they're doing 15 year low numbers.  Also, Da Meltz is the source I'm using for the WWE's feelings on the show. He also said SummerSlam doing so well made Lesnar a lock to receive an extension for an additional year. I'd say they were chuffed with that paltry "16%" increase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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