Un-named Successful booker speaks out about various shit

[NEWM]

I posted this in another thread a while ago, but I think The Rock deserves GIGANTIC credit for getting over as big as he did when he did. I don't give a fuck if the product was hot. Yes we know everybody gets over when business is up, but there's "over" and there's "Hulk Hogan/Steve Austin" and he made that duo a trio. Warrior didn't manage it with Hogan. Shawn and Bret couldn't manage it in Hogan's shadow. Orton now can't manage it with Cena.

 

The WWF had the hottest act in the world, and The Rock was so fucking brilliant he decided there would be two hottest acts in the world. That won't ever happen again, and it's shit all to do with the business at the time, Steve Austin, or the even the booking - it was all about the man himself having the talent to do it. Yes the WWE looks after John Cena, but it's up to anybody on the roster, be it Punk, Sheamus, whomever, to convince the writers that they should be looked after just as much and seen as his equal. Randy Orton has just about got there to be honest, and even though I'm not a huge Punk fan, I'd consider him a way better all rounder than Orton.

 

On screen or off, Punk had that small window where he needed to make the critical alterations to prove he belonged where he had been put. That was a fucking PUSH he got, anyway you slice it. They really ran with him, and in the time between the end of MITB and the buyrate coming in, Punk had to work on figuring out ways to translate that act to cater to the mainstream and wider audience WWE sells to. He didn't, the buyrate was shit, and he gave them no reason to think he should be sharing the wealth with Cena. Pity's bang on too - they're still featuring him pretty heavily, and yet all of a sudden people seem to think he's being ignored or let down by the booking again. I think that's people seeing a flailing act and making excuses.

[ColinBollocks]

I posted this in another thread a while ago, but I think The Rock deserves GIGANTIC credit for getting over as big as he did when he did. I don't give a fuck if the product was hot. Yes we know everybody gets over when business is up, but there's "over" and there's "Hulk Hogan/Steve Austin" and he made that duo a trio. Warrior didn't manage it with Hogan. Shawn and Bret couldn't manage it in Hogan's shadow. Orton now can't manage it with Cena.The WWF had the hottest act in the world, and The Rock was so fucking brilliant he decided there would be two hottest acts in the world. That won't ever happen again, and it's shit all to do with the business at the time, Steve Austin, or the even the booking - it was all about the man himself having the talent to do it. Yes the WWE looks after John Cena, but it's up to anybody on the roster, be it Punk, Sheamus, whomever, to convince the writers that they should be looked after just as much and seen as his equal. Randy Orton has just about got there to be honest, and even though I'm not a huge Punk fan, I'd consider him a way better all rounder than Orton. On screen or off, Punk had that small window where he needed to make the critical alterations to prove he belonged where he had been put. That was a fucking PUSH he got, anyway you slice it. They really ran with him, and in the time between the end of MITB and the buyrate coming in, Punk had to work on figuring out ways to translate that act to cater to the mainstream and wider audience WWE sells to. He didn't, the buyrate was shit, and he gave them no reason to think he should be sharing the wealth with Cena. Pity's bang on too - they're still featuring him pretty heavily, and yet all of a sudden people seem to think he's being ignored or let down by the booking again. I think that's people seeing a flailing act and making excuses.

I disagree somewhat. The Rock was phenomenal but the reason he got over like Savage/Orton didn't/don't is because the biggest draw had to have neck surgery and there was talk that Austin was done. WWE with all its momentum and popularity then focused their machine on The Rock, filling the Austin void. Before Austin had taken time off The Rock was playing second fiddle to Austin, The Rock was involved in transitional feuds with 'Taker, a midcard battle with Billy Gunn and then formed a tag team with Mick Foley (looking like the man in all his feuds mind). It wasn't until Austin pissed off that The Rock became THE guy, before it he was very much Randy Savage (which is no bad thing as Savage was a massive star).Also The Rock was probably more talented than Austin was. Orton isn't as good as Cena and Savage just didn't have what Hogan had. The Rock was probably just that wee bit better than Austin, who was great. It's rare that you have two such talents on your roster. To WWEs credit they exploited both to maximum effect.

[NEWM]

I posted this in another thread a while ago, but I think The Rock deserves GIGANTIC credit for getting over as big as he did when he did. I don't give a fuck if the product was hot. Yes we know everybody gets over when business is up, but there's "over" and there's "Hulk Hogan/Steve Austin" and he made that duo a trio. Warrior didn't manage it with Hogan. Shawn and Bret couldn't manage it in Hogan's shadow. Orton now can't manage it with Cena.The WWF had the hottest act in the world, and The Rock was so fucking brilliant he decided there would be two hottest acts in the world. That won't ever happen again, and it's shit all to do with the business at the time, Steve Austin, or the even the booking - it was all about the man himself having the talent to do it. Yes the WWE looks after John Cena, but it's up to anybody on the roster, be it Punk, Sheamus, whomever, to convince the writers that they should be looked after just as much and seen as his equal. Randy Orton has just about got there to be honest, and even though I'm not a huge Punk fan, I'd consider him a way better all rounder than Orton. On screen or off, Punk had that small window where he needed to make the critical alterations to prove he belonged where he had been put. That was a fucking PUSH he got, anyway you slice it. They really ran with him, and in the time between the end of MITB and the buyrate coming in, Punk had to work on figuring out ways to translate that act to cater to the mainstream and wider audience WWE sells to. He didn't, the buyrate was shit, and he gave them no reason to think he should be sharing the wealth with Cena. Pity's bang on too - they're still featuring him pretty heavily, and yet all of a sudden people seem to think he's being ignored or let down by the booking again. I think that's people seeing a flailing act and making excuses.

I disagree somewhat. The Rock was phenomenal but the reason he got over like Savage/Orton didn't/don't is because the biggest draw had to have neck surgery and there was talk that Austin was done. WWE with all its momentum and popularity then focused their machine on The Rock, filling the Austin void. Before Austin had taken time off The Rock was playing second fiddle to Austin, The Rock was involved in transitional feuds with 'Taker, a midcard battle with Billy Gunn and then formed a tag team with Mick Foley (looking like the man in all his feuds mind). It wasn't until Austin pissed off that The Rock became THE guy, before it he was very much Randy Savage (which is no bad thing as Savage was a massive star).

And while we're politely disagreeing, I'll disagree with this bit in bold. To the extent where they pretty much acknowledged The Rock was having to dirty his boots just getting in there with Billy Gunn. Did he not murder Gangrel or somebody the night after, and cut a scathing promo that it was a fucking joke he was expected to lower himself to such depths? And his feud with The Undertaker was still mostly over the WWE title wasn't it, even it did sit just underneath the Main Event. Plus, Taker was a horrific wrestler at that point, he was sluggish as fuck and horribly suited to the high octane main event style of the time.If Austin's neck had been the best neck that ever necked, The Rock would still have become THE man in 2000, and Steve Austin would have probably turned heel and actually got over properly with it, in something akin to what ended up being Triple H's spot. I'm sure of it.

[ColinBollocks]

I posted this in another thread a while ago, but I think The Rock deserves GIGANTIC credit for getting over as big as he did when he did. I don't give a fuck if the product was hot. Yes we know everybody gets over when business is up, but there's "over" and there's "Hulk Hogan/Steve Austin" and he made that duo a trio. Warrior didn't manage it with Hogan. Shawn and Bret couldn't manage it in Hogan's shadow. Orton now can't manage it with Cena.The WWF had the hottest act in the world, and The Rock was so fucking brilliant he decided there would be two hottest acts in the world. That won't ever happen again, and it's shit all to do with the business at the time, Steve Austin, or the even the booking - it was all about the man himself having the talent to do it. Yes the WWE looks after John Cena, but it's up to anybody on the roster, be it Punk, Sheamus, whomever, to convince the writers that they should be looked after just as much and seen as his equal. Randy Orton has just about got there to be honest, and even though I'm not a huge Punk fan, I'd consider him a way better all rounder than Orton. On screen or off, Punk had that small window where he needed to make the critical alterations to prove he belonged where he had been put. That was a fucking PUSH he got, anyway you slice it. They really ran with him, and in the time between the end of MITB and the buyrate coming in, Punk had to work on figuring out ways to translate that act to cater to the mainstream and wider audience WWE sells to. He didn't, the buyrate was shit, and he gave them no reason to think he should be sharing the wealth with Cena. Pity's bang on too - they're still featuring him pretty heavily, and yet all of a sudden people seem to think he's being ignored or let down by the booking again. I think that's people seeing a flailing act and making excuses.

I disagree somewhat. The Rock was phenomenal but the reason he got over like Savage/Orton didn't/don't is because the biggest draw had to have neck surgery and there was talk that Austin was done. WWE with all its momentum and popularity then focused their machine on The Rock, filling the Austin void. Before Austin had taken time off The Rock was playing second fiddle to Austin, The Rock was involved in transitional feuds with 'Taker, a midcard battle with Billy Gunn and then formed a tag team with Mick Foley (looking like the man in all his feuds mind). It wasn't until Austin pissed off that The Rock became THE guy, before it he was very much Randy Savage (which is no bad thing as Savage was a massive star).

And while we're politely disagreeing, I'll disagree with this bit in bold. To the extent where they pretty much acknowledged The Rock was having to dirty his boots just getting in there with Billy Gunn. Did he not murder Gangrel or somebody the night after, and cut a scathing promo that it was a fucking joke he was expected to lower himself to such depths? And his feud with The Undertaker was still mostly over the WWE title wasn't it, even it did sit just underneath the Main Event. Plus, Taker was a horrific wrestler at that point, he was sluggish as fuck and horribly suited to the high octane main event style of the time.If Austin's neck had been the best neck that ever necked, The Rock would still have become THE man in 2000, and Steve Austin would have probably turned heel and actually got over properly with it, in something akin to what ended up being Triple H's spot. I'm sure of it.

This is all rather civil.WWE protected The Rock, like they did with Savage and do with Orton but he was very much second in command under Austin's watch. I remember you posting a wee while ago, your point was when Austin fucked off the entire roster was allowed to breath, as Austin was dominating everything and made everybody look inferior. With Austin gone the likes of The Rock were allowed the spotlight. Austin was always the main event/program in 1999.The plan in 2000 was for Austin to turn heel on The Rock at Wrestlemania. Whether Vince would have let Austin dominate the show as a heel is anyones guess, given how Austin did business he certainly wouldn't have went down easily.

[The Cum Doctor]

That sort of logic doesn't hold up, because if we believe that everything bad is down to the evil writer monkeys, then Cena and Orton are the best wrestlers ever for succeeding in spite of them. And that's bollocks, which is why we only blame the writers when wrestlers we like do poorly. When wrestlers we don't like do something shit, it's their own fault.It'd take a div to think that Punk is just following orders anyway. Same as any wrestler, if they give him chicken shit, he can either change it or try and make chicken salad. This is particularly true of the main event set, which is why Cena doesn't deserve any free passes for the corny shite he comes out with.Plus, it was that same desperate and erratic writing that had people on here jizzing back when Punk was sat on the stage talking about the doofus son-in-law.

I think Cena and Orton's main pushes came at a time when things were a bit more stable than they are now. And notice that not once did I say the writing was shit. I said it was erratic and desperate. There seems to be a lot more pressure now than there had been. I honestly couldn't see a Cena or an Orton emerge right now. Both of those guys took a lot of time to get to the top, and in both cases, they were constantly pushed. CM Punk's has been a bit more stop start. Again, I don't think that CM Punk could go long term, but maybe if given the chance, he could prove us wrong.I also didn't say Punk was just following orders, but he certainly does have a certain line to follow. Unfortunately he doesn't really have the range in order to pull it off right, but that's neither here nor there really.The reason that Punk thing worked was because it was a short term thing. More a pre-curser to the main angle coming up. We've seen plenty of good stuff coming from them, which is why I didn't call the writing shite at any point. At this point more than any other, my thoughts of the writers is that they are FAR from shit. Just pressured.

Exactly. Which is why Punk's thing -- predicated on how he hadn't yet been the main man and him voicing the opinions that unsatisfied fans shared -- should've worked from the get-go, regardless of whether he'd lost to Randy Orton in the spring.

It's a bit harsh to expect someone to just take off like that though. You're essentially talking a two week pre-curser to a bigger angle really. Yeah, a lot of people bought into it, but you'd have had to have been mental to expect things to suddenly spike. Of course, you WOULD expect a TV ratings spike, which is somewhere you'd have an undisputable point.

A lot of people on here talk about Punk being too arrogant to be a successful babyface, and I don't really buy that, at least not in terms of putting it all on the arrogance. There are very few wrestlers who've been as arrogant as The Rock. And yeah, Rock is a special case, but to hear anyone talk earlier in the summer, so is Punk. It shouldn't matter that much if the cult of personality thing is really there. And Punk should be very different in demeanor from Cena and even Orton. I think the difference is with Rock and Austin, there was an action-hero bad-assery to their smugness, whereas with Punk he's just a smarmy prick with insider references. And he looks like a weedy sex offender trying to disguise themselves as Dave2Tone.

You've put it a bit better than me there using the word "smarmy" actually. Insider references are neither here nor there as they should be able to work if you have the right guy with the right delivery.As far as I'm concerned, CM Punk has cut two really good promos in this current main event run. The one on the stage and the one with the contract signing before Money in the Bank. Whereas I thought he was doing all sorts of crackers when he was fueding with Jeff Hardy three summers ago, did one fucking stoater when fueding with Rey Mysterio and I'm sure there will be others that I'm forgetting about. I'm pretty sure that's where he belongs. CM Punk as a top line heel definately appeals to me. CM Punk as the new big face in WWE definately doesn't.

[air_raid]

I have no wish to jump in on the Punk ( ) debate at present, but this caught my eye :

To the extent where they pretty much acknowledged The Rock was having to dirty his boots just getting in there with Billy Gunn. Did he not murder Gangrel or somebody the night after, and cut a scathing promo that it was a fucking joke he was expected to lower himself to such depths?

"The Rock against Billy Gunn. The Rock against Gangrel. I mean, next week the Rock will be laying the smack down on the Brooklyn Brawler, for Chrissakes (sic)."I think we might just be doing the booking team a slight disservice in describing that mini-feud - born out of Rock's feud with Hunter which was, of course, to resume in due cours - as The Rock dirtying his boots. I'd suggest it was more designed to put Billy up there onto The Rock's level and attempt to get him his keys to the main event bathroom, since he was a fairly despised heel after turning on Dog & Pac, and Rock and Austin were a little short on heels to feud with at the time.Rock's little outburst on Raw I always interpreted as an on-screen admission that that the Mr Ass experiment had failed - depending on what you believe from the Observer/PS crowd, his push may have been doomed from the start when Austin was being presented with a list of potential challengers and flat-out refused to work with him (and Jeff Jarrett) citing that he wasn't a credible threat to him. Austin is also believed to have insisted on only dropping the title to Mick Foley, as while he was happy to work with Hunter, he allegedly didn't want to drop the title straight to him. Again, that was printed in PS, take it or leave it.The other alternative of course is they just didn't think Billy was going to cut it as a main eventer based on the build for SummerSlam, the match itself and the fact that no-one thought he had a cat in hell's chance on beating The Great One, and thus gave Rock carte blanche to speak about Gunn like the midcarder he, in truth, always was. Take your pick.

[The King Of Swing]

Only thing I really remember of Billy Gunn's big push(s) was him dropping Benoit on his head during a PPV match, actually I think he may have dropped Benoit on his head in another match after or before that one as well.

[gadge]

Seeing as how we're talking about long-term booking...I like the way that Orton has been built steadily in the two and a half years since his big WrestleMania main event with HHH bombed at 'Mania 25. They have pushed him in such a way that he had to prove himself, but he's done so and gone from strength to strength.First, they made him face without rushing a single turn angle. They started by slowly making it clear that Legacy were holding him back so that fans wanted him to break off on his own. Look at the big events of 2010 - at Royal Rumble, faffing around with Legacy cost Orton vs Sheamus. At WrestleMania 26, he was only in the second match after main eventing the previous year, but the crowd wanted to see him put Legacy behind him, and he did so. By the time Summerslam came around, the live crowd were desperate to see him unseat Sheamus for the WWE title. The DQ finish was annoying (wonder why Summerslam buyrates keep dropping? anyone?) and after that Orton did get bogged down by the Nexus angle being all about Cena, but once he got into the CM Punk feud he moved up another level.By WrestleMania 27, Orton was in the fourth match on the show. The feud with CM Punk was much more compelling than the Legacy split. When it comes to WrestleMania, Orton is still earning every spot he moves back up the card. The crowd accepted him vs Punk in a midcard Grudge match on the biggest PPV of the year. Now though, he's the main fan favourite on Smackdown. If I had to guess, I'd predict him to be in the World Heavyweight Title match at WrestleMania 28, roughly equivalent to where Edge was this year. Admittedly, the World Heavyweight Title match was opener this year, but still seen as higher billing than midcard Grudge match. While there are short term moments that can be picked at, you can't argue that the booking and the man himself have both been responsible for recovering Orton long term from the position he was in after WrestleMania 25.Now, while you can argue that WWE haven't learned from the way HHH vs Orton bombed at WrestleMania 25 (see Cena vs The Miz falling flat this year), the way Orton has become a very popular fan favourite deserves praise, and I think I've outlined why.Thoughts?

[King Pitcos]

By WrestleMania 27, Orton was in the fourth match on the show. The feud with CM Punk was much more compelling than the Legacy split.

I think that's true, but only because the Legacy split was awful. The Orton-Punk feud was as generic a Lone Wolf vs Faction Leader feud as you can get.