Paid Members DJ Kris Posted August 17, 2011 Paid Members Share Posted August 17, 2011 In fairness, the police have caused the death? The title's factually correct. Your suggestion is nothing more than assumption. Actually it isn't. Firstly the report doesn't state a cause of death so it's purely speculation at this point that it's as a result of the taser. Secondly even if it is as a result of the taser would it not be the deceased who is the cause of his own death by not only putting himself in a position where the police had to get involved but also acting in a way that required the use of a taser? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Devon Malcolm Posted August 17, 2011 Paid Members Share Posted August 17, 2011 I predict a riot. Â Nice one, Lenny Bruce. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Burchill's Buddy Posted August 17, 2011 Paid Members Share Posted August 17, 2011 Not to mention my own personal experience of police using excessive force/generally being twats. I think largely that's what's going to cause the difference in the two camps in this thread. I've never once in my life been bothered or harassed by police, my ex is a met officer and obviously through her I had friends in the force, all of which were good people who just wanted to do good for their community. Â As for the cause of death argument, DJ Kris said above pretty much exactly what I was going to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Dead Mike Posted August 17, 2011 Paid Members Share Posted August 17, 2011 That's not really how 'cause of death' is reported or works though is it? You don't often read 'A man died because he never learned the green cross code'..you'd read 'A man died after being hit by a bus'. Â With regards to the 'two camps in this thread'...there's been enough examples, especially recently of widespread police corruption, right from the top to more than justify peoples distrust of the police. Just because we've had some riots & people got frightened doesn't instantly make people forget about what's happening within the met. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Burchill's Buddy Posted August 17, 2011 Paid Members Share Posted August 17, 2011 That's not really how 'cause of death' is reported or works though is it? You don't often read 'A man died because he never learned the green cross code'..you'd read 'A man died after being hit by a bus'. But it'd still be the deceased's fault if he didn't look and walked in front of a bus, not bus driver brutality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smeg_&_The_Heads Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 I think largely that's what's going to cause the difference in the two camps in this thread. I've never once in my life been bothered or harassed by police, Â I have been once and TBF I was in a area that would look suspicious (walking down the banking of a motorway at about 3am) I just was really really lost and all they did was ask me to empty my pockets ask me what was wrong so I did and they took me to the nearest phone box so I could call for a taxi to take me home. Â All of my other dealings with the Police I was either a victim of a crime or was reporting one (with the exception of my suicide attempt and I know and agree they should of come out to deal with me for that) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Dead Mike Posted August 17, 2011 Paid Members Share Posted August 17, 2011 But it'd still be the deceased's fault if he didn't look and walked in front of a bus, not bus driver brutality. Â Yes, but that's not what Kris said? He claimed that the guy caused his own death by getting tasered. It'll be interesting to see what actually happened to warrant being tasered to death (if that is what killed him), especially seeing as he was only being arrested on suspicion of criminal damage, plus what Richie said about the reputation of the police in his area, where it happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smeg_&_The_Heads Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Yes, but that's not what Kris said? He claimed that the guy caused his own death by getting tasered. Â But he did if he hadn't been causing trouble and then had not resisted arrest he would still be alive. Â If you do something worth tasering it's not like the Police can or should ask "Hey before we Taser you how's your heart" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Burchill's Buddy Posted August 17, 2011 Paid Members Share Posted August 17, 2011 Yes, but that's not what Kris said? He claimed that the guy caused his own death by getting tasered. No, Kris said he caused his own death by putting himself in the position to get tasered. Which I agree with. Â I think the problem is that I am jumping to the conclusion that the guy had committed criminal damage and was resisting arrest, because my prior experience with police has only ever been good and the police officers I know would never use a taser unless it was a last resort. Â From what I can tell you seem to be jumping to the conclusion that the guy was innocent and the police just tasered him because he was there and because they are all violence hungry sadists. Probably because you have had bad experiences with police before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Dead Mike Posted August 17, 2011 Paid Members Share Posted August 17, 2011 So as long as the police claim you resisted arrest you deserve what you get, in this case death? Â From what I can tell you seem to be jumping to the conclusion that the guy was innocent and the police just tasered him because he was there and because they are all violence hungry sadists. Probably because you have had bad experiences with police before. Â Yes, we still have the presumption of innocence in the UK. Just about it seems Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Surf Digby Posted August 17, 2011 Paid Members Share Posted August 17, 2011 A taser is designed to be non-lethal, so there's a distinct probability that there's some other contributing factor, such as drugs or heart defects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members DJ Kris Posted August 17, 2011 Paid Members Share Posted August 17, 2011 That's not really how 'cause of death' is reported or works though is it? You don't often read 'A man died because he never learned the green cross code'..you'd read 'A man died after being hit by a bus'. Not the same thing though. The title of this thread and as you pointed out, potentially the way it would be reported lays blame on the Police which isn't necessarily the case. The example you just gave isn't placing blame on the driver or the dead man, it's stating the face that he died after being hit by a bus. Â With regards to the 'two camps in this thread'...there's been enough examples, especially recently of widespread police corruption, right from the top to more than justify peoples distrust of the police. Just because we've had some riots & people got frightened doesn't instantly make people forget about what's happening within the met. As I see this, there are people out there who will jump to the conclusion that the Police are in the wrong right off the bat due to their own experiences or their own attitudes. As far as I know though we're not in a state were the majority of police act wrongly, I wouldn't have thought we were even close. As such, which incidents of dodgy coppers being rare I see no reason to jump to conclusions until there is evidence to support such thinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smeg_&_The_Heads Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 So as long as the police claim you resisted arrest you deserve what you get, in this case death? Â Then don't commit a crime in the first place then the Police will have no need to even have to deal with you at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Dead Mike Posted August 17, 2011 Paid Members Share Posted August 17, 2011 That's quite an idealistic point of view...'don't commit a crime?' He was being arrested on suspicion ffs  As I see this, there are people out there who will jump to the conclusion that the Police are in the wrong right off the bat due to their own experiences or their own attitudes. As far as I know though we're not in a state were the majority of police act wrongly, I wouldn't have thought we were even close. As such, which incidents of dodgy coppers being rare I see no reason to jump to conclusions until there is evidence to support such thinking.  It's not as black & white as that though is it. Of course the majoirty of police aren't corrupt but enough has gone on to make people question what they're fed by the police as opposed to just blindly believing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members DJ Kris Posted August 17, 2011 Paid Members Share Posted August 17, 2011 Yes, but that's not what Kris said? He claimed that the guy caused his own death by getting tasered. No I didn't. You've missed a crucial part of what I said!   I think the problem is that I am jumping to the conclusion that the guy had committed criminal damage and was resisting arrest, because my prior experience with police has only ever been good and the police officers I know would never use a taser unless it was a last resort. See, I wouldn't say you were jumping to any conclusions. All you're doing is forming your opinion based on the information available. It's others that are jumping to conclusion, with as yet, no supporting evidence.  So as long as the police claim you resisted arrest you deserve what you get, in this case death? No, as long as you are resisting arrest you deserve what you get so long as the Police have acted appropriately.  Yes, we still have the presumption of innocence in the UK. Just about it seems Unless of course you're the police  It's not as black & white as that though is it. Of course the majoirty of police aren't corrupt but enough has gone on to make people question what they're fed by the police as opposed to just blindly believing it. There's nothing blind at all. We're talking about 1 guy who has died. We don't know his cause of death. We don't know details of what he was supposedly doing wrong. We don't know why the police used a taser.  What this means is you have nothing at all to make any kind of arguement against the police on. yet, at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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