spurs 4 life Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 Do you not understand how banging on about "no surrender" and organising marches (which are, letr's face it, a show of strength) could makes these situations worse? To try and sum up Spurs 4 life's points, am I right in saying that you, as person from those areas, don't give a fuck why the scum are scum and actuall just don't want scum around? Treating the cause is always the first hope. It stops the problem. But I think what spurs and pitcos and others are trying to say is that after a point where you haven't treated the cause for long enough, the disease becomes self sustaining and needs to be eliminated before you can start going about doing so. In which case, honestly I can totally see his point.It's a vicious cycle that just gets worse, and sometimes the heavy hand of the law needs to be...well, heavy handed to halt the tide. It ain't pretty, and we can all sit and tut and complain, but sometimes it needs to happen to be able to start again. Thankyou Duke i know i'm coming across as all daily mail reader here, especially after my send them home comment that i regret but did try and qualify later but i've seen my home of over 20 years burnt to the ground last night and now i'm hearing about the area where all my work collegues live is under attack. I do care why the scum are scum and i am aware more than any of you that Tottenham has serious issues that need addressing but first and foremost i'd like to the silent law abiding majority in Tottenham protected. An issue i have is that Tottenham is part of London. If you really want work in London you can get it. I might be putting my foot in it again but it's not like northern towns and citys where there is genunely no work. London is MASSIVE and very easy to get around. There life isn't hopeless at all, it's a poor cliche from American gangster rap. Tottenham needs investment and masses of it but first and foremost we need to make it a safe place to live. Thats why i want more police and tougher punishments for these gangs. Making it as hard as possible for them to deal drugs or whatever their upto will work in the long run. Make it almost impossible to earn money through gang related means and that will put the younger ones off following them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Pitcos Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 (edited) Treating the cause is always the first hope. It stops the problem. But I think what spurs and pitcos and others are trying to say is that after a point where you haven't treated the cause for long enough, the disease becomes self sustaining and needs to be eliminated before you can start going about doing so. I don't know about spurs, but not me. You can't just do all punishment or all reward. As long as the rewards of being a bad egg seem grand and the consequences seem small, and being a good egg seems either impossible or shit, the cycle will continue. And the cycle will always continue. There are always going to be poor people, and there is always going to be crime that appeals to some of them. Only the details change. No amount of community outreach bullshit or police states will change that completely, but gains can be made. Edited August 7, 2011 by King Pitcos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Duke Posted August 7, 2011 Paid Members Share Posted August 7, 2011 I don't know about spurs, but not me. You can't just do all punishment or all reward. As long as the rewards of being a bad egg seem grand and the consequences seem small, and being a good egg seems either impossible or shit, the cycle will continue. And the cycle will always continue. There are always going to be poor people, and there is always going to be crime that appeals to some of them. Only the details change. No amount of community outreach bullshit or police states will change that completely, but gains can be made. Agreed on the bolded part, and that's kind of what I'm trying to say. Sometimes it's best to have the carrot, sometimes the stick. This is seeming more like, in the very short term at least, a stick situation, I disagree that only the details change. Oftentimes the size does too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Pitcos Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 Yeah, size was one of the details I meant. As I said, gains can be made. You're bang on that in this instance, it's the stick that's needed. In my opinion, the carrot's only ever for the ones who either haven't started at all down the bad road yet, or have only taken a few steps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Duke Posted August 7, 2011 Paid Members Share Posted August 7, 2011 Yeah, size was one of the details I meant. As I said, gains can be made. You're bang on that in this instance, it's the stick that's needed. In my opinion, the carrot's only ever for the ones who either haven't started at all down the bad road yet, or have only taken a few steps. Indeed... Don't get me wrong, in an ideal world I'm, how you put it "a bleeding heart slacktivist". I'd far rather spend more money to prevent crime by helping people than hammer them when they commit it. But after a time ,the hammer needs to come down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spurs 4 life Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 I don't know about spurs, but not me. You can't just do all punishment or all reward. As long as the rewards of being a bad egg seem grand and the consequences seem small, and being a good egg seems either impossible or shit, the cycle will continue. And the cycle will always continue. There are always going to be poor people, and there is always going to be crime that appeals to some of them. Only the details change. No amount of community outreach bullshit or police states will change that completely, but gains can be made. Yep my biggest issue with these kids is that they think they can do what they want with no consequence whatsoever. I have no issue with projects helping them with their music which in my experience is the one thing they all want to do but i also want them dealt with when they step out of line. Twitter which of course is the haven of bullshit is going mad. The rumour is that tonight will all come to a head at the Edmonton green shopping centre at midnight. I've also heard rumours that it's kicking off at Westfield in Shepards bush, Wembley, Brixton, Southwark, Islington and Central London. Lets hope it's twitter being it's usual unreliable self. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members CuckedByMenry Posted August 7, 2011 Paid Members Share Posted August 7, 2011 A poor young disaffected male showing his pain.... Twitpic. There are no words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Psygnosis Posted August 7, 2011 Paid Members Share Posted August 7, 2011 (edited) Trouble in Brixton 'at least' 200 youths damaging police cars, places shutting down everywhere and in Westfield too? http://yfrog.com/kl8whstj Edited August 7, 2011 by Psygnosis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spurs 4 life Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 I'm getting the info on a Spurs board where obviously a lot of people live in these areas and their saying that it's madness and they can't believe it's getting hardly any coverage. The hertford road is like a warzone according to some leading from Edmonton to Enfield. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spurs 4 life Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 Telegraph journo in Brixton twitter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Psygnosis Posted August 7, 2011 Paid Members Share Posted August 7, 2011 (edited) “@lee_mccullough: @LondonText: Protestors are throwing petrol bombs on passing cars from a bridge on the A10 from #Tottenham to #Enfield. AVOID THE ROAD.” Edited August 7, 2011 by Psygnosis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spurs 4 life Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Halitosis Romantic Posted August 7, 2011 Paid Members Share Posted August 7, 2011 Is there any shit going on in Edmonton Green? I have some poor Lithuanian tenants holed up in my flat, scared shitless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spurs 4 life Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 Is there any shit going on in Edmonton Green? I have some poor Lithuanian tenants holed up in my flat, scared shitless. As i said a Guardian journo claims he has been told the plan is for them all to meet there at midnight and the Hertford road from there to Enfield is a warzone. Also some kid got stabbed outside the conservative club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbins Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 Possibly, although his post that gave only that reason for them acting like scum made that very easy to do. That's some disingenuous shit. You've read the thread. You created a strawman to knock down. Admit it. Read back, I think you were the mongol he tripped up with it in the first place. Why is "they only act like scum because people call them scum" more valid than "people only call them scum because they act like scum"? YOU read back. I was the one who sarcastically pointed out that Rick's reversal of my comment that people behave like scum when they are treated like (not "called", big difference) scum was like a chicken and egg scenario. I'm sure he didn't intend it that way, he just made the statement that people are only treated like scum when they act like scum. I think I was the mongol who pointed out that taken to it's natural conclusion that would imply that Baby P had it coming. And that a foetus would need to be possessed by a scum-demon in the womb for it to be true. "You people"? Not the best term to use when you're so determined to do your bleeding heart slacktivist routine. Then again, White Knighting for looters who corrupted a peaceful protest and turned it into a destructive free-for-all is a bit of a new low anyway. I think you managed to cram every cynical bullshit internet distracting rhetorical device into a couple of lines there. Good work. "You people" was intended ironically. Not white-knighting for looters obviously, just think that it's more productive to try and understand the wider problems that can lead to this kind of behaviour if we want to sort them out, rather than yelling "INHUMAN SCUM" from the sidelines creating more anger and fear and scapegoating. You're representing your own view as an absolute, as is Whiskey. Until you make a post that even slightly suggests these people are responsible for their own actions, you're firmly in the "it's everyone else's fault they're like that" camp, because that's been the tone and implication of all of your posts thus far. I'm sorry if it's come across that way, but we're fighting a tide against the idea that all of society's problems can be solved by chucking out the bad apples. Of course every human is responsible for their own actions, and no-one has made any excuses for individuals behaving badly. Whiskey1 has made that clear several times. But do you have no intellectual curiosity at all about why humans behave the way they do? Do you honestly believe that humans behave badly purely because they're scum? Do you believe that the ability to make good decisions in life is learned behaviour, or is it something innate like a scum gene? That is the absolute position being presented here. Whiskey and I have presented the idea that there is a whole host of possible reasons for anti-social or criminal behaviour, from upbringing, to genetics, to education, to poverty, to surroundings, peer groups, expectations, role models, childhood trauma, learning difficulties etc etc, and yes individual sense of morality. That's not an absolute position, that's a nuanced position. I've underlined some of the nuancey words there to try and help. There is a world of difference between making excuses for societal behaviour and trying to understand and resolve the societal problems that tend to lead to anti-social and criminal behaviour. Nuance motherfucker, nuance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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