MMA: Past Fight Discussion

[jimufctna24]

After reading that Pat Militech described Tim Sylvia as a overachiever, it got me thinking who else I think has overachieved in MMA

 

Forrest Griffin

 

The only natural gifts Forrest has is size and his body allows him to weight cut very well without harming his cardio. People describe him as a hard worker and with his limited talent he has to be. He is rough and the edges, not very technical, powerful or athletic and is not outstandingly skilled in any area of MMA. Yet he is a future HOF and has wins over Franklin,Shogun and Rampage not to mention that he is a former World Champ.

 

I once described him due to his unrefined style as the modern day Tank Abbot, I did not mean it as a compliment, however he always got the most out of himself. His striking he used his strengths, his leg kicks were powerful and he used them when he faced people he did not check them (Rampage) and he used his size to his advantage when facing smaller yet more skilled fighters (Franklin and Shogun) he got the most out of himself even though there was not a lot to go on. In the Shogun fight he simply won due to training hard and being bigger, the skill difference between the two is massive in favor of Shogun, Forrest was in better shape and had more miles on his clock with his cardio.

 

Also, it is forgotten he was tooling Rashad Evans for a few rounds before Rashad clipped him, again that was due to size and reach he used well and not actual technique or ability if they were the same size it would have ended a lot sooner. When faced with a man who had similar reach and it was skill vs skill with Anderson, the result and humiliation speaks for itself just look at the difference in reflexes and speed, things that are mainly natural, the result would be the same if Forrest ever fought Jones who is same build and height.

 

Despite his physical gifts making up for his limited athletic ability, the rest is down to hard work from Forrest. Randy Couture said he had to lock the gym to keep him from training, and his heart and guts have given him a lot over the years, lesser fighters could have not come back from the beating Tito Ortiz gave him in round 1 of their 2006 fight, and also that knockdown against Rampage in round 1 would force a lot of fighters into a shell and not risk throwing leg kicks.

 

If I was going to train a rookie, I would look past Forrest for reasons mentioned, but with his heart and hard work, for me he is a classic overachiever.

Edited September 5, 2012 by jimufctna24

[Egg Shen]

yeh i think i have to agree with that. Griffin's recent behaviour has been disappointing though and he just seems to have lost that certain something that made him so succesful a few years ago (i put it down to fame and complacency), but there's no denying Forrest some of the wins he's had during his career. I'd definitly labal him under the category of over-achiever.

[wandshogun09]

I agree with your point on Forrest Jim.

 

I'll throw Brock Lesnar onto the overachievers pile. He came into MMA late, with only wrestling and size going for him. Obviously his name value carried him and opened doors but for a guy who was so one dimensional and with the position he was thrust right into from his second pro fight onwards, I think it's remarkable what he did in about a four year span.

 

Sure he had physical gifts going for him but so did guys like Ron Waterman. He basically came in as a straight wrestler and turned the heavyweight division on it's head. Say what you want about Brock but he fought the best guys available to him and he didn't do bad at all.

[jimufctna24]

I agree with what you have wrote Wand, but I have Lesnar down as a underachiever.

 

Given the circumstances of how he entered the sport there is a case for him being a overachiever, but I feel he could have been a lot more if circumstances were different.

 

If he would have trained under someone who would force him to push himself more and learn to get used to getting punched, he would not cower away as much. He would have been more confident standing and not rushed things like he did with Cain. His illness also prevented him from achieving his potential as well.

 

The years he wasted in WWE could have also been spent in MMA if the money was there for him. If Brock won the NCAA Championship in say 2006 when the money was in the sport, and trained more productively with say Cesar Gracie's camp for a number of years, with his size and natural gifts I think he would be the best Heavyweight in the world right now.

 

We do not have a time warp so I am speculating, but it is honestly what I believe, the man is a physical freak just look at some of his stats from High School. When a man has that amount of physical tools with strength and speed I feel they should have been much more, and he did achieve a lot as it is.

 

Bas Rutten here explains in part why I think Brock underachieved -

Edited September 5, 2012 by jimufctna24

[wandshogun09]

You make good points, and I've seen Bas' opinion on it before as well. It all makes sense to me.

 

But, they simply never had time to bring him along the traditional way. In an ideal world he'd take some fights on the lower leagues, train up at a camp like ATT or something where he'd get quality training in all facets of MMA. But he was signed on a big money deal at just 1-0 in MMA, which meant he had to fight top guys right off the bat. He never had the building phase most guys have where they train for a couple of years and get a reasonable base in a couple of disciplines or more before they start fighting.

 

He was a one off case. They couldn't bring him in like they did Cain Velasquez and build him slowly. His name was too big and they had to make sure they got the most reward out of him. He was already in his 30s when he got into MMA, there was no way he'd be well rounded in the time he had to work with.

 

He had one monster skill in wrestling. He picked up knowledge of submissions quickly under Comprido Medieros and was said to be coming along really good with submissions. It was a natural thing for him to complement his wrestling with and there's a lot of transferable skills.

 

Striking obviously was his weakness. When he trained with Greg Nelson he at least developed that powerful straight right.

 

 

He dropped Mir with it in his UFC debut. Made Heath Herring do a backwards roll with it his next fight smashing his orbital bone in the process. Then he put Randy down with it and finished him on the ground to win the title.

 

It was one punch but it was effective for him. I believe he cut ties with Nelson at some point around or after the second Mir fight at UFC 100. And if you notice, after that the straight right disappeared from his arsenal. He seemed panicky after that, even before he was in trouble. Bullrushing Cain right away in their fight looked like a rookie move for example, and I don't think he'd have done something so reckless under Nelson.

 

He replaced Nelson (a very knowledgable all around MMA coach) with Marty Morgan (Brock's old wrestling coach). So Morgan would have to train Brock in MMA despite having no background in anything but wrestling. Bad move in hindsight. A one dimensional rookie coach in charge of one a dimensional rookie fighter.

 

There's defo things he could have done better, I agree 100% on that. But I don't think if he'd gone to say Golden Glory for 6 months he'd be that much better on the feet. Clearly there would be some improvement but at 31/32 there was only so much he could learn.

 

For that reason I think he overachieved for what he had to work with. But if you could somehow fuck around with time and bring in a 24/25 year old Brock Lesnar straight out of the NCAA's into 2012 MMA and put him in a top level camp to learn from scratch, it's scary to think just how phenomenal he could have been.

 

 

Then again in that scenario, for all the benefits it would give him as a fighter, he wouldn't have had the notoriety from his WWE days. He wouldn't have came in with such buzz and very possibly wouldn't have made as much money. So it depends which way you look at it.

Edited September 5, 2012 by wandshogun09

[Egg Shen]

i genuinely believe that if Brock had gone into MMA slowly and worked his way up he'd have come unstuck just like Bobby Lashley did. I think he benefited from the fact that he came in at the top and basically went at it blank paged. I think the guys fighting were so concerned about his physical gifts that they probably forgot to just go in there and take the guy out (Mir 2 being a prime example, all the bulking up nonsence).

 

It's always gonna be up for debate because Brock people will always questions whether Brock was quite the same after the surgery, and how good could he have really have been.

 

I'll have him down as an over-achiever, who under-achieved later in his career haha.

Edited September 5, 2012 by Ebb

[jimufctna24]

Its all how you look at it really, it would be hard for me to argue that Brock being the money motivated guy that he is would choose MMA in 2000 over WWE, but if he had, he would have dominated for years in the UFC in my opinion. He would have stayed in America as he hated the travel so Pride would have not been a option. He could/should have hooked up with Militich who he initial chose when in entered in MMA in 2006, Pat would have got the most out of him and he would have not cowered and ran as much, if he could make Sloth Sylvia into what he did, he could have done a lot with Brock.

 

He was/is better than pretty much any heavyweight from 2000-2009 who were in the UFC, only Cain, JDS and Overeem are better than him now. Nog and Fedor were in Japan, and the version of Nog that turned up in 2007 Lesnar would have slaughtered. Couture, Rizzo, Ricco and Barnett (2002 version) he would have beaten and any version of Frank Mir. Arlovski would have been interesting but I would lean towards Brock, and Sylvia would have been mauled. Brock in my alternative reality would have found it easier with more time to improve and be molded, I am comparing the version we actually got!

 

He could have been so dominant if he chose to enter the sport earlier and that is why I think he under achieved, with the circumstances I agree he over achieved to a extent, the illness is a question mark and he could have made better training choices as Wand underlined.

Edited September 5, 2012 by jimufctna24

[wandshogun09]

Yeah, I think ego hindered Brock's development in part as far as training goes. Its well known that Brock was the boss of his own training camps which isn't good for any fighter imo.

 

Its funny you mention Pat Miletich Jim. Matt Hughes talks about Brock's visit to Miletich's gym in his book. According to Hughes, him and Brock rolled, he caught Brock in a choke, Brock tapped and it really bothered him. Hughes said he explained to Brock that it's better to get caught in the gym than in the cage, he'd learn from it and that everyone gets tapped in training. Brock never came back.

 

Hughes can be a knob but something about that rings true to me. Brock always struck me as someone who hates to be bettered ever, even in training. He brought Pat Barry in to help him with striking and all I ever saw in training footage was Brock taking him down. Why wrestle your striking coach? He also launched Nik Lentz across the gym in one training session because Lentz caught a choke on him. Problem is, that's the way you learn.

[jimufctna24]

Yeah I know that story, I forgot in my alternative reality Brock would be willing to learn and have a different attitude, but even in what actually happened that was a larger part of why he underachieved in my opinion.

 

I am not sure where I think Brock should have trained at when he started in 2006, Militech was a fading force, Xtreme Couture whilst vibrant at the time had Couture there that would eventually create a conflict of interest. AKA is not the scene and neither is Jacksons due to travel and their large amount of fighters. Team Quest may not be able to cover his weaknesses. I know he went to Xtreme Couture once after the Cain loss and beat the snot out of everyone rolling, but his ground was never his problem after 2009.

 

Greg Nelson may have been the best bet at the time and it was the worst thing to get rid of him. I guess it was all down to his ego wanting to be the boss, as much as I like him and feel he is HOF material, he is a bit of knucklehead isn't he.

Edited September 5, 2012 by jimufctna24

[jimufctna24]

Anyway I will do someone else I feel is a underachiever

 

BJ Penn

 

Let me put my cards on the table straight away, I think Penn is more naturally talented or just as talented as Anderson Silva, Fedor and GSP. Maybe as much as John Jones. Guys like Dan Henderson and Randy Couture are nowhere near as talented as Penn.

 

If we were to measure potential and natural ability, Penn would be regarded better or just as good as the people mentioned. The frustrating thing about Penn is he wasted years and it was at times down to him being a lazy git. Someone on here (probably David or EBB) said that GSP is athlete while Penn is merely a fighter, and the game evolved past him, that is partially true but when Penn trained like a athlete under that NFL coach, we had a very special athlete.

 

Just as Edgar was robbed against Bendo, in the first fight make no mistake Penn was robbed against Edgar. The commentary was very biased and most impartial observers felt Penn won handily. Penn was crap that night and Edgar was better than he usually was at that point, but Penn still won. By the rematch either age had caught up to Penn, Edgar had gotten better, or Penn had gone back to old habits. I think the latter mainly, but all three came into play. I think that was the night time run out on Penn and cemented his legacy as a man who should have been more.

 

Penn was always better than Matt Hughes and Jens Pulver, they both beat him due to the fact they worked harder in the gym. Penn had them both beat in submissions when he lost against both, if Penn had the cardio that he should have had those two would have not got a sniff. It proved to be a common theme, the first GSP fight he was tooling GSP until he ran out of gas, BJ was a fat fucker then as well and GSP was in supreme shape. Come the rematch GSP had evolved into a machine, it was athlete vs fighter and athlete won. I also believe it showcased HGH at its best, but some will disagree. BJ has never done PED's so you can see what I am saying.

 

He also wasted time in a petty dispute with Dana, regardless if he was in the right it was a waste of time. The only thing BJ picked up in his time away was a meaningful win over Gomi, proof he was still the best at 155lbs, a title he had never won but was always regarded as such.

 

The Penn that rampaged through Stevenson, Sherk, Snachez and Florian in 2008-2009 is still the best lightweight I have seen, fuck Edgar, Gomi or anyone else. With cardio and maturity he sadly lacked in previous years to compliment his powerful pin point boxing, insane balance and TDD and excellent submissions, for a while he was a complete fighter at 155lbs. Without the size advantage GSP had, the 155lbs were fucked.

 

Sadly it did not last with the Edgar arrival, and although beating Jon Fitch for two rounds and getting a draw out of much bigger man, he has not been the same since. I hope he calls it as day soon. BJ for me should be mentioned as good or if not better P4P than GSP, Silva and Fedor but he will not and its all due to his at times lazy attitude and bad choices. Seeing lesser talents being put ahead of him is really a shame as it should not be that way, but it is.

Edited September 5, 2012 by jimufctna24

[Egg Shen]

regarding the Brock stories with Lentz/Miletich... I think it's the perfect case of the jock getting bullied back, the fact that Brock set up his own camps tells me that he likes everything to go his way, and the Milietch kinda stories are probably what led to that move. These American wrestlers come through school as superstars, they probably have never dealt with losing anything in their lives, they are used to winning and being the biggest/strongest guys around. It must be a bitter pill to swallow when you enter an MMA gym and start getting schooled by smaller guys.

[wandshogun09]

regarding the Brock stories with Lentz/Miletich... I think it's the perfect case of the jock getting bullied back, the fact that Brock set up his own camps tells me that he likes everything to go his way, and the Milietch kinda stories are probably what led to that move. These American wrestlers come through school as superstars, they probably have never dealt with losing anything in their lives, they are used to winning and being the biggest/strongest guys around. It must be a bitter pill to swallow when you enter an MMA gym and start getting schooled by smaller guys.

 

Exactly. Brock had his gym attached to his fucking house. If training didn't go his way he probably just pissed off next door to have a Coors Light and get on top of Sable.

 

I agree 100% on the BJ Penn post Jim. In fact I think BJ is possibly MMA's biggest underachiever and that's saying a lot when you look at what a great career he's had. He's considered the best lightweight in MMA history yet the general feeling on him is he could have been so much better. That's a scary thought.

 

I've always said the best version of BJ Penn we ever saw was the one that fought Florian and Sanchez in 2009. He had incredible performances before that (Sherk/Stevenson) but that 2 fight span when he was training under the Marinovic's he showed a glimpse of just how good he could be if he fully dedicated himself.

 

I'm not one of these people who act like BJ was out of shape for every fight he lost. He wasn't. Even at 170 now, it's not his true weightclass but he's a much better conditioned 170 now than he was in 2004. Look how fat he was for the first Hughes fight in 2004 and then look at him in the third Hughes fight in 2010. Different body. So he does train hard but that 2009 spell he was pushed in a different way and it really paid off.

 

He looked in the best physical shape of his career under Marinovic...

 

 

...he finished both Florian and Sanchez late (4th and 5th round) which showed his long criticised cardio wasn't an issue at that time, he looked sharp on the feet and on the ground and was considered unbeatable.

 

 

BJ Penn was fucking scary back then.

 

If he looked that much better in just 2 fights with Marinovic, imagine how good he could have been after a year-18 months?

 

Then for some reason he got rid of Marinovic and went back to his own methods. His next fight was Edgar and already he didn't look in as good shape as he did vs Sanchez just 4 or 5 months earlier. And he lost his title, he had his moments but he didn't look the same in that fight. He's never been the same fighter since the Sanchez fight.

 

For a fighter who's usually so fired up and hell bent to avenge losses (see how he was for the Pulver feud), he just seemed really out of it and disinterested even in the rematch with Frankie. Remember this?...

 

 

Just didn't seem with it.

 

I'm not saying Edgar only won because BJ changed his camp about, I'm a huge fan of Frankie and he's proved himself that he wasn't a fluke champion. But I think when BJ is long retired he'll probably look back and wonder what would have happened if he stuck with Marinovic.

 

Defo an underachiever.

Edited September 6, 2012 by wandshogun09

[jimufctna24]

That gif says it all. He looks like a right saggy fucker as well.

 

I agree the Marinovic days were the best as short as they were. I could be wrong but the only fight I recalling him losing when he was in tip-top shape and motivated was the second GSP fight and even that came with a serious size disadvantage and greasegate.

 

The Florian fight he did something no one ever believed he could do, he let Florian do all the work, still won the rounds handily and waited for Kenny to gas and then finished him, for a man who's motto used to be "just scrap" it was a very good gameplan. The difference in talent that night showed, effortlessly Penn won without expanding much energy, there was a master at work that night against a modestly good opponent.

 

The Sanchez fight was like MMA's version of some of Floyd Mayweather's fights, it was a protracted domination, Sanchez had nothing that night and for guy as decent as he is, it showed how fucking great BJ was at times.

Edited September 6, 2012 by jimufctna24

[wandshogun09]

I loved the Florian fight. I think I actually picked Florian to win that looking back.

 

I was always a BJ Penn fan, I got into MMA when he was out of the UFC and I'd read all the stuff about him being so talented. The whole time Hughes was champ I'd read the stuff about how BJ was the real champ and all that stuff. So I went back and watched his early UFC fights. The title win vs Hughes, the demolition of Caol Uno, the Din Thomas KO. Then I'd hear about him destroying Gomi and beating Gracies and stuff. When he came back to the UFC I was rooting for him from then on.

 

That point after the greasegate thing though, it got to the point where I got sick of him moaning about the whole thing. It seemed like he was slipping and distracted with all the outside the cage stuff with Dana, greasegate, poor training and all that. And I thought we'd never see him at his best again. I thought the Sherk fight would be the peak of his career.

 

Then I heard he'd hired some NFL coach to run his camp and I saw the photos of some old fucker and thought, this is a joke. What can a 60 year old NFL coach do for an MMA fighter? BJ's clutching at straws, it won't work etc.

 

So I picked Ken-Flo.

 

And I was happy to be wrong. Everything Florian tried failed. Everything. He tried to replicate what GSP did by tiring BJ in the clinch. But he didn't have the size or skill of GSP to pull it off. Plus BJ was much better prepared for that fight and his cardio was up to it. It seemed like BJ was just coasting in first gear for 3 rounds, and then round 4 he got bored and put Florian away with ease.

 

Amazing performance. A career resurgence I didn't expect.

 

I was a bit of a Florian fan but I'd started to tire of his "I finish fights" shite by then. Plus Florian was such a little weasle around that time. BJ was saying in his book about it. He said that before the greasegate fight with GSP, Florian sent texts to him saying he hoped BJ won and that GSP was a greaser. He said Greg Jackson fighters all grease and accused Roger Huerta of doing it in their fight.

 

Then after the whole GSP thing went down, BJ was saying GSP was greasy, Sherk backed it up, the commision saw it etc. Florian kept his trap shut and then flat out denied saying anything. Next thing you know Florian is training at Jacksons and is announced as Penn's next opponent.

 

Penn could be lying I suppose but if it's true, what a snidey little fucker Florian is.

[jimufctna24]

Snap, I picked Florian was I did not think Penn would be motivated after greasegate and knew Florian would turn up full force.

 

BJ's book is actually by favorite MMA bio along with Twat Hughes's. Mainly because both let the guard slip a bit and slag others off, yes its bitter at times but it is very compelling and really what fans want to read.

 

Looking back I am not sure if GSP did grease before Penn or not, the people he complained do all have a axe to grind, the Jackson camp is dodgy though so I can believe Penn with what he said about Florian.