MMA: Past Fight Discussion

[CurryAngel]

 

Arona would have been incredible in the UFC around 2006. His style was so suited to the cage and elbows I really believe he would have held the title at some point. Look at how he held Wanderlei, Henderson, Ninja, Lister and Sakuraba down on the mat almost effortlessly. I'm not exactly certain how the scoring of ADCC works but he's never had a point against him so, to quote Joe Rogan "His Jui Jitsu is top of the food chain".

 

For me, Sergei Kharitonov is a massive underachiever. When he came into PRIDE he massacred Ninja and Semmy Schilt then had an amazing fight with Big Nog which could have gone either way. Since then he seemed to just lose something, very lacklustre against Werdum then losing to Aleks and disappearing to fight journeymen. Came to America, beat Arlovski then lost quite easily to Barnett.

 

He was being billed as a threat to Fedor and, if he'd have continued to improve from around 2005, it would have been a great fight with a decent backstory (teaming together at Russian Top Team before Fedor left to form the Red Devil Fight Club).

[Egg Shen]

yeh great little post on Frank Shamrock. You're spot on about him beyong a kind of MMA folk hero back in the day, his final Strikeforce run (whilst exciting) put all that to bed though. Frank was inactive when i got into the sport and i'd see the stuff on the forums about and he was alwaysuy seen as a guy who could come back and give all the top guys a going over...he was like an American Rickson Gracie it's interesting to think how Frank would have been viewed in history if he'd never returned to the cage.

[Egg Shen]

 

Arona would have been incredible in the UFC around 2006. His style was so suited to the cage and elbows I really believe he would have held the title at some point. Look at how he held Wanderlei, Henderson, Ninja, Lister and Sakuraba down on the mat almost effortlessly. I'm not exactly certain how the scoring of ADCC works but he's never had a point against him so, to quote Joe Rogan "His Jui Jitsu is top of the food chain".

 

For me, Sergei Kharitonov is a massive underachiever. When he came into PRIDE he massacred Ninja and Semmy Schilt then had an amazing fight with Big Nog which could have gone either way. Since then he seemed to just lose something, very lacklustre against Werdum then losing to Aleks and disappearing to fight journeymen. Came to America, beat Arlovski then lost quite easily to Barnett.

 

He was being billed as a threat to Fedor and, if he'd have continued to improve from around 2005, it would have been a great fight with a decent backstory (teaming together at Russian Top Team before Fedor left to form the Red Devil Fight Club).

ahhh yeh, Sergei fell into that wandering hell where he never really settled. There's still hope for him now but rather than fight MMA he seems content on becoming some kind of lower-tier K-1 fighter. You never know what these Russian fighters are thinking of.

[wandshogun09]

Sergei's a great shout. He was kind of an early version of JDS in some ways but for whatever reason he seemed to lose the drive. Sure he had some injuries as well which didn't help and he just never kept himself in top shape after about 2006/07.

 

He's still had his momenta and he's always a threat but his ship seems to have sailed sadly. Him making Overeem physically turn away and run in a fight just shows he was a force when he was on.

 

I have to echo the praise for the Sergei vs Big Nog fight as well. That for me is one of the best Heavyweight fights in MMA history. Criminally underrated and forgotten.

[jimufctna24]

Thanks for the kudos guys, as you have been so nice I will give Arona a go. If any of you want to write up any of the suggestions I would love to read them.

 

Underachiever Ricardo Arona

 

 

It is actually a loss that made me direct my attention to Arona. As a teenager just exposed to MMA, I always looked for flash, that is why Tito Ortiz with his colorful personality was my first love in MMA. Arona offered none of that to me on first impression, he was just another Brazilian guy in Pride. As my interest in MMA grew and I added to my knowledge through books and internet, I was fascinated with finding any weakness in Fedor. That fascination drew me to discussions online about who had come close to beating him. Now I have never seen the fight between Arona and Fedor, but a large portion of people who saw it in some places thought Arona won or deserved a draw. Research today reveals the judging criteria favored damage over positioning and that is why Fedor got the verdict. Not to go of on one, but in other words it is what you value as winning a fight.

 

A quick check of Arona, who I was now interested in made me understand, he had only lost to the very best of what was on offer and had beaten a lot of decent guys. A prime Ninja Rua, the Pride version of Hendo (Hendo Lite, but still a decent notch) a destruction of Sakuraba just in time before it began to lose meaning and of course that win over Wanderlai. Which I viewed recently and he was indeed fantastic.

 

Even back then he never got the attention he deserved in my view, taking Fedor to the limit in his pomp and beating Wanderlai in his own weightclass which had not been done in 5 years should have made him one of MMA's biggest stars, but people forgot about him. But he never quite won any title to cement his talent, he lost a rematch to Wand where he would have been Champ if he won, and lost the Final of the GP to a unstoppable Shogun. Even then he was in a way a underachiever, he was good enough to win a title and have his name be just as big as the Wanderlai's and Shoguns of the world.

 

Then of course came the point where he did not go to the UFC, now a loss against fellow underachiever (or flash in the pan if you like) Sokoudjou did happen, but it was like his loss against Rampage, it was a defeat where he did not do much wrong, he just got caught (or in the case of Rampage slammed)

 

Lets have a look at the UFC in 2007 and how he matched up and what he could have achieved. The contenders at the time where Rashad, Tito and Jardine. Rashad was not yet the force he was today, Tito who was entering his decline got a draw out of him. Both of them I think Arona could have beaten, neither at this point had that good a striking game, plus wrestling/grappling wise I think Arona matches up well at this stage with both.

 

Jardine is awkward and maybe not the best style match up, but it is not beyond reason Arona could outgrapple him for a points win. Forrest was in his prime and maybe able to defend Arona's takedowns with how big he is, but again that could go either way. Shogun was haggard and if they rematched I would give the edge to Arona if Shogun turned up like he did with Forrest. Liddel would be a bad style match up, but with how haggard Chuck was who knows what would have happened, I would maybe pick Chuck though as the style match up favors him greatly. Rampage at this point was at his peak, Arona I think would have trouble with him. That is the only one cut and dry I can say I do not think Arona would have a shot, unless we include Machida.

 

So Arona could have been a big star Stateside in the process of its boom period. As said his style does match up well in the Octagon. I have read that people think if the 2005 version of him was in the UFC today the sport has evolved where he would not do well. This is true, Jones, Machida, Gustaffsen, Shogun and Rashad I think would all beat him but we forget that Arona was 29 in 2007, he could have evolved also training with say Black House or ATT in America. Big Nog learnt some new tricks later in his career with his boxing so why should Arona be any different.

 

One last note, is at 5,11, I think like Wanderlai and Shogun, he could move down. He was carrying a lot of muscle, but I do not think if he dropped a bit he could move down and win some fights at 185lbs, I do not think he would be Champion, but a decent contender would be probable.

 

When people talk about Pride, they mention Fedor, Hendo, Rampage, Wand, Nog and Shogun. Its a shame Arona is not mentioned, a underachiever in the cage/ring and a forgotten man to most fans.

Edited October 5, 2012 by jimufctna24

[jimufctna24]

Thought I would tackle a easy one for 10 mins before I have a early night.

 

Underachiever - Kevin Randleman

 

 

If we go on physical gifts, Kevin Randleman has everything it takes to be a big attraction and a great fighter. By 2004, though it was all over.

 

One thing that no doubt set him back was the climate, at 5ft 10 he should ideally be fighting at Middleweight even in the 1999-2005 era. His first losses in MMA were against bigger but not more skilled fighters, Tom Erikson was massive, Couture was a decent sized heavy for his time and Barreto even though I have never seen him is listed as 6ft 4 and 230lbs, all way too big. 205lbs for his time he was too small for even back in 2001 when he made the switch, as it was a more legit class I do not blame him for going there. than what would have been a long cut to 185lbs if he lost a bit of muscle.

 

Randleman proved on his day he could be something very special, wins over a prime Rizzo and Babulu are impressive scalps. But a big factor with Kev was his bad luck, a loss against Rutten that could have gone his way, the return of Couture he was a horror match-up in a time when he was cementing himself out of Colemans shadow (I think he was the better fighter, but Coleman is still more well known for simply being first) he also ran into a underhyped Chuck Liddel in his debut at 205lbs, some have argued that it was a early stoppage as well.

 

Another issue was his camp, Hammerhouse I always associate with the 90's as they never evolved. It was just wrestling and muscle growth, no submisison defense or serious striking training, if Randleman had been natured by Pat Militich from 2000 onwards it could have been so different. Look see what working with Liddel did for him going into the Cro Cop fight.

 

He ran into Saku and Rampage in their prime (more bad luck, but he made his bed by being ill prepared with his backwards camp) then showed how scary good he could be. With lighting fast hand speed he knocked out a prime Cro Cop, this is akin to what Serra did to GSP. The Fedor fight is legendary, but it also involves more bad fortune in a morbid way. Kev if he would have dumped Fedor a tiny bit differently would have beaten Fedor that night by broken neck. I am glad it did not happen as Fedor could well be a cripple! But still if we are going on what could have been, this was a bit more bad luck. Kev showed with how he lifted Fedor his immense strength.

 

He was only 32/33 in this period, but it was all over after the Fedor fight, he has not had a serious win since and is amazingly only 41. Ron Waterman showed despite his strength and speed, he should not be a Heavyweight as he was just too small. A drug pop after a loss to Shogun was is last go round in the big leagues unless you count two forgettable losses in Strikeforce, his health has been shit for years as well and from what I read and he is now considered retired.

 

His mental state always held him back in my view. I watched the Pride GP 2005 recently where he lost in the first round and looked bad, his pre-fight interview was more entertaining. Speaking like a Mike Tyson late 90's tribute he was full of himself saying the top seeds were avoiding him, other interviews he is always wild eyed and intense as well. In a funny twist him and Coleman protected Tito the night in 1999 where the lions den were kicking of, a clip of that I have seen proves it is not a act. He is bat shit insane. A street fight with Rampage a few years back and submitting non-human urine samples also agrees with this

 

So, if Kev would have had his head on right, trained with a more evolved camp and found the right weightclass he could have been as big now as Chuck or Randy and not resorting to fighting for Cowboys in Japan in his winter years. He had the athletic gifts, intensity and wrestling base to be become something special. But it was just never meant to be.

Edited October 7, 2012 by jimufctna24

[wandshogun09]

Randleman had the lot. Well, he was pretty boring to watch (Cro Cop/Fedor fights aside) but he had everything else. A marketable look, unpredictable character, talked a lot of shit and had two attributes that could take you a long way back then. Wrestling and heavy hands. Wrestling is still the main base of MMA now in my opinion.

 

Like you say, a move in training camps would have helped him massively to become a more well rounded and probably a more exciting fighter.

 

I actually think the whole Hammer House team could all be classed as underachievers. Coleman, Randleman, Baroni, even Sims to a lesser extent, could have been more than what they were had they forced themselves to evolve at other gyms rather than stagnate at Hammer House for years.

 

What's the story on the Randleman/Rampage street fight Jim? I don't recall hearing that one. Aside from their fight in Pride, they always seemed to get on. They were all pally on the 2003 GP DVD extras, and that was a few months after their fight. What happened?

[jimufctna24]

I tried finding the article but Sherdog search only goes back to 2008. I cannot find anything anywhere else either.

 

It happened I believe in about 2007 and was a pretty minor incident, from what I remember Rampage got the best of it. Not sure what it was over. I do remember it was the front page of Sherdog. I think they get on ok again now.

[Warren Powell]

I tried finding the article but Sherdog search only goes back to 2008. I cannot find anything anywhere else either.

 

It happened I believe in about 2007 and was a pretty minor incident, from what I remember Rampage got the best of it. Not sure what it was over. I do remember it was the front page of Sherdog. I think they get on ok again now.

 

http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f44/rampage-...t-vegas-476098/

 

That the one?

[jimufctna24]

Yeah, they had a article on it but that will do.

 

2006, well I was only a year out.

 

Thanks

 

Edit: Sadly I cannot find anything with details about it or why it happened.

Edited October 8, 2012 by jimufctna24

[wandshogun09]

I really meant to get to this sooner but better late than never. I'm hoping to finish this Diaz stuff soon so I'll try to pump out the last 2 posts over the next week or so. Anyway...

 

 

"I'm not even the same person for a fight. I come to realize that. What you see out there and what you see from day to day is completely different. And I get a lot of...people give me a lot of shit about my attitude and the way that I act and I'm like, "Hey, I gotta do what I gotta do." I think I have the right mentality and a lot of people are not cool with that. They think that I got all of these crazy reasons behind it, but I think that I'm the only one thinking logically about my whole situation that I'm in. And that's why I wear the expression on my face when I think about the real shit that I'm in."

 

After the loss to KJ Noons and the fight being stopped due to cuts, Nick Diaz had surgery to shave down the bones around his eyebrows to try and reduce the constant problems he'd had with cuts since his MMA career began. It's a common surgery in combat sports due to the build up of scar tissue which can result in the eyebrows looking constantly swollen and leaving them more susceptible to cuts. Wanderlei Silva and Marcus Davis have had the same thing done since.

 

For Diaz, I think it's helped. He still marks up fairly easily but you don't see him bleeding above the eyes so much now like he was prone to early in his career.

 

If you're eating, I'm sorry...

 

 

 

His next fight was booked for May 2008. Diaz would return to the welterweight division against Katsuya Inoue for Japan's DREAM promotion.

 

 

Diaz has always said he prefers the Japanese rules and way of doing things in MMA;

 

"I really love fighting in Japan. For me, it

Edited October 10, 2012 by wandshogun09

[Egg Shen]

The Diaz/Shamrock fight disappointed me when it happened. I'm someone who well and truly had the wool pulled over my eyes with Frank Shamrock, there was a period when i believed he was legit top 5 in the world at MW during his Strikeforce run...put it down to marketing and some clever matchmaking. I genuinely thought Shamrock was gonna win that fight, and the way he just crumpled against Diaz was shocking. Bare in mind this was also the time when i thought everyone was gonna walk through Diaz punches and take him out, ive since realised that it can't be done

[jimufctna24]

Most thought Frank was going to win that fight. People thought Frank would be too big, it was the other way round, Nick towered over Frank with about 2 or 3 inches of height on his side.The best think about Franks comeback was the classic with Cung Le and the gate he pulled against Cesar. He also did decent business with Baroni. I loved him I will not lie, I still do in many ways but the Renzo fight proved he was a special attraction, his name and promotion pulled you in, not his ability. MMA evolved from 1999 to 2006 and past him by, he was good enough to win in some favorable matches but compete against a prime Nick Diaz? Looking back, what were me and the experts thinking.We all should have taken note of the Renzo fight. Its amazing what gets forgotten in MMA history, even recently because Frank vs Baroni and Frank vs Renzo at the time were big deals in 2007. MMA alone drew interest more in 2007 than it does now, no doubt.

Edited October 11, 2012 by jimufctna24

[jimufctna24]

Overachiever - Kimbo Slice

 

 

Thought I would break the cycle of underachievers with the other side of the coin. This is not a post lauding his achievements as a fighter, more a post of his achievements as a drawing card despite his questionable ability.

 

Youtube first came to life in 2005, the first video I watched was a tribute to Mayhem Miller. But before then the name Kimbo Slice was gaining momentum, a while before this whilst prowling the depths of Sherdog the name Kimbo Slice cropped up a lot. I first heard it when researching who Sean Gannon was who fought at UFC 55, it seemed he grew his name through beating Slice in a arranged yet unsanctioned brawl. When Gannon got his arse kicked by the depressingly average Brandon Lee Hinkle, I dismissed Slice as a underground fad.

 

People starting using Youtube more in 2006 and 2007 and his name grew, like I said I had already dismissed him and news he was turning to MMA interested me about as much as a Jim Davidson reunion tour. A special attraction win over Ray Mercer glanced my eye, but I felt he would eventually go away.

 

During this time however his infamy grew to such a extent where people I knew would mention him to me, by 2007 UFC/MMA was pretty hip in certain circles, it was no longer what I looked at on the PC at college to waste a hour. I friend once told me what I thought of "that Kimbo Slice" as I am not one to wear my MMA elitist attitude on his sleeve I entertained him for a bit. "Ahhh the uneducated, I thought" I still thought it would be a fad.

 

He was a product of his time, people were using the internet more and more, and Kimbo was one of its first major stars born exclusively on the net. It would be harder to happen now, the internet is too rife with other people breaking out and the novelty of a street fighter putting his fights n Youtube was taken by Slice, in other words it has been done.

 

When Elite EX, a company I did not take that seriously signed him I felt they were grasping at straws. His win over Tank Abbott and some other bum who's name escapes me still did not sell me on his as a fighter. The Tank fight was the first sign that he could draw though, his hometown in Florida loved him. The week leading up was the first sign some MMA elite were taken exception to a streetfighter who was not even that good stealing their thunder.

 

Then the boom came, for a 34 year old novelty fighter to headline the network debut of MMA proved me wrong all along. Kimbo was huge, as a fighter who was Top 30 at best even at Heavy, he had a scare against the imposing but weak chinned and world weary James Thompson. MMA hardcores and some fighters cried foul that Kimbo was shitting on the sport they built and portraying it in the wrong way, but casual fans loved it. They were oblivious to Kimbo not actually being very good, they just enjoyed the fad.

 

Bas Rutten did improve Kimbo, he was now 230lbs and compared to what I thought he would become in say 2007 he did overachieve as a fighter as well, but that is not saying much. Elite XC without Kimbo did pitiful ratings, but like all fads born with novelties it all came to a end. The decent but not special Seth Petruzelli derailed the train in a shambles, Ken Shamrock cut himself so he could not fight, Frank Shamrock tried to step in and all sorts of shady tactics were accused. Kimbo had been exposed though, he lost in humiliating fashion. Gary Shaw I am sure thought it was a situation that could be salvaged, but it was not. Elite XC folded and it seemed the Kimbo fad had ended.

 

Then came the twist, the UFC wanting a ratings hit called on Slice to go on TUF. People again cried foul, but the ratings spoke for themselves, the highest rating ever to see Kimbo lose to Big Country, people were still interested. As a man who admits he is a sucker for hype, I will admit I tuned in every week and avoided spoilers. I even woke up early on a Thursday morning to download it before I went to my college course, sad as it seems I have good memories of that time of life and TUF on a Thursday morning was a welcome addition.

 

Anyway, the series was for me the last commercially successful series of TUF, the show was based around Kimbo coming back after he lost. The skill level was not good but that did not matter to most fans. The UFC would milk the fad twice more with Kimbo beating Houston Alexander which did a decent TV number and milked the PPV market with him losing to Meathead. The UFC could have let him stay on, as he was 1-1 (1-2 if you count TUF) but they decided to kill the fad before it did damage to their brand, they did not want to take too much integrity out of it for the sake of short term profit so Kimbo was wished well and moved on.

 

For a man who made his name in the doldrums of the Internet, Kimbo is a overachiever. He is responsible for some of the biggest ratings in MMA history and surely made more money than hundreds of more talented fighters. In another era he would have not gotten this attention, he was just in the right place in the right time and he took advantage of it. He comes across as a nice guy, so fair play to him.

 

For better or worse, we will never have another Kimbo Slice.

Edited October 11, 2012 by jimufctna24

[Egg Shen]

Most thought Frank was going to win that fight. People thought Frank would be too big, it was the other way round, Nick towered over Frank with about 2 or 3 inches of height on his side.The best think about Franks comeback was the classic with Cung Le and the gate he pulled against Cesar. He also did decent business with Baroni. I loved him I will not lie, I still do in many ways but the Renzo fight proved he was a special attraction, his name and promotion pulled you in, not his ability. MMA evolved from 1999 to 2006 and past him by, he was good enough to win in some favorable matches but compete against a prime Nick Diaz? Looking back, what were me and the experts thinking.We all should have taken note of the Renzo fight. Its amazing what gets forgotten in MMA history, even recently because Frank vs Baroni and Frank vs Renzo at the time were big deals in 2007. MMA alone drew interest more in 2007 than it does now, no doubt.

yeh Shamrock knew how to sell a fight. By the time he fought Phil Baroni it felt like one of the biggest fights in the sport, great marketing and it ended up being an entertaining fight. I critisize Frank a lot nowadays mainly because i think hes a lousy fucking commentator but if i had to list my favorite top ten fighters in terms of entertainment value over the years, he'd be in there no doubt.