MMA: Past Fight Discussion

[jimufctna24]

I will be honest, I do not know who some of the guys in EBB's link are.

 

So it did make for a good read to expand my knowledge of erm shitters in the UFC. Oh and I agree Wand's career posts are fantastic. I would like to see him do Big Nog,

[Egg Shen]

I will post this link though, its well worth half hour of your time, i read it on the shitter, quality stuff...

 

The 50 Worst Fighters in UFC History

 

Cheers for that link Ebb. I read it last night and really enjoyed it. Before I clicked it I had a think about things and was expecting it to be full of the likes off Jimmerson, Tuli, Ettish, Ramirez, Nasri from the early years, so it was nice to see they mixed things up a bit. Especially enjoyed the TUF section with the likes of 'the fuckin' Gladiator', Stand & Wang, Petruzelli and Gabe the Godzilla. Oh, and Neil Grove made the list too!

yeh, some thought and research went into it. Them Cage Potato lists are usually garbage but this is one of the better ones ive seen...and i too had no idea who some of the guys were

[jimufctna24]

Why Anderson is the Great One

 

 

After watching UFC 153 this afternoon, it got me thinking. As of right now can anyone say Anderson Silva is not the greatest MMA fighter of all-time. Sure Jon Jones may surpass him in 3-5 years, but for now Anderson is the man. In this post I hope to show you why I think he is greater than Fedor, his closest rival to date for greatest of all time. I would love to hear from Fedor fans and have a fun debate on the matter.

 

Prime

 

For the sake of argument I will compare their Primes, which would mean when they were in the Big Leagues at the height of their career taking on world class fighters. So Cage Rage and Rings will be ignored, as will Anderson's Pride run and Fedor's Strikeforce run. This is where I give Anderson the first edge, I give him a longer Prime. I have Anderson's down for 6 years from 2006 to now. Fedor's I have down as 2003-2005, about 3 years. But for the sake of fairness I will include 2003-2009, as some Fedor fans think he lost it after the Roger's fight.

 

Wins/Resume

 

This is Fedor's strongest claim he beat the best versions of Cro Cop and Nog, but Anderson quietly matches it. Beating a injury free and focused Dab Henderson is top draw, this is the same Hendo who beat Wand a year earlier and beat Palhares and Bisping after. not the back infected one who lost to Shields or the inconsistent one in Pride. Anderson finished him as well, Fedor never finished Nog or Cro Cop.

 

Chael is another notch overlooked, he beat him twice and once with a bad rib. Chael is the best wrestler Anderson has faced, and P4P a better wrestler than Coleman and Randleman, who were the best wrestlers Fedor faced in his prime. Fedor also had the luxury of never testing himself against guys that much bigger than him, and when he did they were jokes like Zulu. Anderson beat a former LHW Champion in Forrest who outweighed him by between 30-40lbs come fight night. Anderson has for the last 6 years taken on the best 185lbs has to offer, and 185lbs offers more diverse and well rounded challenges than Fedor faced in his Pride heyday.

 

Herring is not bad, but he is only as good a Heavy as Maia, Okami, Marquart are Middlewights. The Cro Cop fight is Fedor's best win in my eyes and it is a beauty, but did he ever face in this period a boxer the caliber of Belfort. Arlovski and Sylvia were damaged goods when Fedor beat them, most of Andersons wins came against guys entering or in there Prime. Both faced stern challengers in this time, but I feel by I feel the consistency of Silva's was higher.

 

Vulnerability

Fedor fans like to crow that Anderson got tooled by Sonnen for 4 rounds and dropped a round to Hendo. They forget their boy in his Prime was far from immortal. Fujita almost knocked him out, Mark Hunt had him in trouble on the ground, Randleman almost broke his neck and Arlovski was soundly outboxing him before Fedor countered a silly mistake. Anderson may have been vulnerable for longer stages, but there were more instances were Fedor was vulnerable. Anderson is vulnerable to top-level wrestlers, but Fedor is vulnerable to his looping punches getting countered. There is not much in it.

 

Heart/Chin

 

Both are fairly equal here. Anderson quietly has a great chin and Fedor is tough as nails. Anderson found it in himself to comeback with a broken rib after 4 rounds of punishment to win with a submission, where as Fedor came back to breeze past Fujita after being rocked bad. Both have proven they can deal with sticky situations.

 

P4P

 

If they fought at the same weight, prime for prime, Anderson would win. He is too quick, too refined and too stylish for Fedor. It is a style Anderson would lick his chops at, Fedor was a decent wrestler, but if Anderson could deal with Sonnen who is only 10 lbs or so slighter than Fedor come fight night and a much better wrestler, Anderson should be fine.

 

Anderson striking is perfect to counter Fedor as well. Bret Rogers showed us that, those quick straight punches and head movement would make Fedor's powerful yet looping shots look B-Level. Anderson is also very strong as he showed with Bonnar, so Fedor may not be able to throw Anderson around. Anderson is also quicker for his weight than Cro Cop is for his, so Fedor would not be able to smother Anderson like he did Cro Cop, as Anderson could dance around and pick apart Fedor.

 

All Round

 

Fedor has powerful punches, great armbars and brutal GnP but Anderson has more. In addition to being a better athlete with better reflexes and quickness for his weight. Anderson has great punches that are powerful and accurate, brutal knees, good leg kicks, good TDD, decent subs, a outstanding clinch game and more style to what he does. He has more weapons and used them in a more stylish way.

 

Personality

 

Anderson could be a dick at times (see Maia and Liates) but he was interesting, good looking and a character. Fedor is a podgy, ugly, boring git as a person. I know that is part of his charm and he is by no means a bad guy or a boring fighter, but a like the emotion and romance to Anderson so much more. I am a sucker for charisma though.

 

So there you go, anyone want to debate my points feel free. I know my argument will incur counter points and I would enjoy defending them.

Edited October 14, 2012 by jimufctna24

[wandshogun09]

Very good post and you make a strong case. I'm a big fan of Fedor but I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment that Anderson would be too sharp and slick for him. I'd have Anderson to win that one but if both were at their physical peak it would have been a phenomenal fight to watch. Fedor of 2003-05 vs Anderson of today.

 

Just a couple of minor points I disagree on.

 

I don't think it's fair to say Arlovski was damaged goods when Fedor fought him. He'd been KO'd a few times but he'd never had a good chin, his first ever MMA fight he lost by KO.

 

It's easy to look at Arlovski now and say he wasn't a good win for Fedor but at the time Fedor fought him, Arlovski was in maybe the best form of his career. He was on a 5 fight win streak with a win over Werdum and KO's over Rothwell and Roy Nelson in there. A KO over Nelson is an achievement in itself. Arlovski was on fire at this point. And Fedor spanked him.

 

 

The second point I disagree on really doesn't matter as it's completely a matter of opinion. But I would say Fedor's 2 wins over Big Nog were more impressive than the Cro Cop win. Like I say it doesn't really matter because they were all impressive. But although Cro Cop was a beast back then, there was a clear way to beat him which was taking him down. Fedor did well on the feet but he also got caught a lot and wobbled at one point.

 

 

He only started to dominate Cro Cop in rounds 2 and 3 when he took him down and beat him up on the ground.

 

The Nog fights though, were scary for different reasons. The first one Fedor was the underdog. Nog was the champ and was in his absolute prime back then. Fedor did the unthinkable and fought the whole fight in Nog's guard which was thought at the time the most dangerous guard in MMA or at least at Heavyweight. Fedor shrugged off every sub attempt and battered him to a pulp.

 

Fedor vs Nog 1

 

I'll discount the second Fedor/Nog fight because of the headbutt ending but the third fight was another scary performance from Fedor. This time he kept it standing and just toyed with Nog. Knocking him down, throwing him around and letting him up so he could do it again.

 

Fedor vs Nog 3

 

So personally I'd say the Nog fights were more impressive just because Nog had more tools than Cro Cop for me. It wasn't as straight forward because Nog's hands were good back then, he had a better chin than Mirko and he was lightyears better than Mirko on the ground. And Fedor schooled him twice, both on the ground and on the feet when Nog was at his very best which is amazing.

 

The rest of your points I agree with but this was way harsh Jim...

 

Fedor is a podgy, ugly, boring git as a person.

 

[Egg Shen]

man, look at that 3rd fight gif. of Nog and compare that to the guy that fought Saturday night I fear for Nogueira's health, i really do.

[The Natural]

Haven't watched it in a while but Fedor/Big Nog 1 is one of the best ever heavyweight fights.

[wandshogun09]

Yeah Nog's in bad shape these days. He's taken a lot of punishment over the years and he's suffered more than most in MMA injury wise. He looks old for 36.

 

Regarding him looking flabby now, I don't really see that improving. I think his hips and knees are so bad now he must struggle to do a lot of cardio training, running especially. He didn't look so bad physically until he had the double hip surgery after the Cain fight.

 

He still looked in decent shape before that, not Pride shape but he looked pretty good at times. He looked close to Pride shape when he fought Randy.

 

He's never going to be in top condition again sadly. It's a miracle he can still fight to the level he does considering. I do really want to see him hang them up now though, he's got nothing left to prove. He won't though, he's on about fighting a top 10 Heavyweight now

[The Natural]

I also would like to see Big Nog go out on UFC 153. Big Nog looks older than his years with the punishment and operations.

[jimufctna24]

Wand - I will concede my Arlovski point, fair play.

 

The reason why I feel Cro Cop was the bigger scalp is the style match up, a grappler at that stage like Nog at that stage could be overwelmed by Fedor and striking wise Nog was a decent but not great boxer.

 

Its all down to the style, Nog is the much more complete fighter than Cro Cop I agree, but Cro Cop's game at this point I dare say may have been a bit better than Nog's and I also think the TDD and all round kickboxer that Cro Cop was makes it even more impressive Fedor beat him.

 

Also, Cro Cop was considered to be in Fedor's head after Cro Cop took his brothers head of. But as you say, it all perception on that one.

 

As far as me rating Fedor looks and personality go, harsh it is, but I am jealous as he is a proper real man you see. This is why I like Anderson so much as he is a complete pansy like me. I watched 153 at my parents house and I told my Dad about how Anderson was thought to be gay when he was younger due to his excessive concern with how he looked. My Dad laughed and said "sounds like you son"

 

EDIT: On the subject of Big Nog, FrontRowBrian on Twitter thinks Nog is older than 36 and that he lies about his age. Could be bollocks though. I actually started working out when I saw a DVD of Nog's physique during the 2004 GP, he was in fantastic shape back then.

Edited October 15, 2012 by jimufctna24

[Egg Shen]

ive never heard of the Nogueira's apparetly lying about their age, they do look older than they are though. Kimbo Slice's age is meant to be fabricated.

[deathrey]

The looking older could just be wear and tear though, Big Nog looks a lot older and rougher than Little Nog

[wandshogun09]

Yeah Little Nog still looks alright for 36. Big Nog's face looks like a scrotum these days though. Same with Wand, he's 35 but he looks about 50. It's wear and tear.

 

If you look at Nog he's gone through being hit by a truck which nearly killed him and put him in a coma, he's gone through countless injuries, a couple of serious bouts of staph infection, double hip surgery and a snapped arm. Not to mention a long fighting career and beatings at the hands of Fedor twice, Cro Cop and Sapp before the comebacks and the wars with Barnett, Randy, Herring and Kharitonov. It will age anyone.

 

As far as me rating Fedor looks and personality go, harsh it is, but I am jealous as he is a proper real man you see. This is why I like Anderson so much as he is a complete pansy like me. I watched 153 at my parents house and I told my Dad about how Anderson was thought to be gay when he was younger due to his excessive concern with how he looked. My Dad laughed and said "sounds like you son"

 

 

On the subject of Big Nog, FrontRowBrian on Twitter thinks Nog is older than 36 and that he lies about his age. Could be bollocks though. I actually started working out when I saw a DVD of Nog's physique during the 2004 GP, he was in fantastic shape back then.

 

He really was in tremendous shape for that 2004 GP. Can't find a good picture but...

 

 

It doesn't really show so much there but he was ripped for that tournament. And I thought he was doing pretty well against Fedor in the final before the clash of heads. It was more competitive than their other fights and he looked sharper. If he was ever going to beat Fedor that may have been the night. Shame how it ended.

[wandshogun09]

Who's going to be your next subject? If you are taking requests, I'd like one on either Randy Couture but it might be difficult getting links to complete fights, Big Nog perhaps?

 

I'm thinking Hendo next. Probably Nog after that.

 

Oh and I agree Wand's career posts are fantastic. I would like to see him do Big Nog

 

You kinky bastard. I would though. It's the dent in his back that does it for me.

 

I'm hoping to get the last 2 Diaz posts knocked out this week.

[jimufctna24]

Supreme Overachiever - David O' Donnell

 

 

As I am currently writing a Essay on Domestic Violence I thought I would lighten my mood by talking about my favorite MMA buffoon

 

Just picture the scene, you are at a sports bar or a nightclub a place where you meet plenty of shady characters who are likely to bullshit. A forty something year old bald man who speaks like a wannabe Kray Twin comes up and says he promoted the greatest fighter in the history of the sport when the big leagues did not want a sniff, gave Michael Bisping and Brad Pickett there break and also ran against the UFC staging a show at Wembly that was shown on Sky Sports. You would not believe him would you.

 

Tragically in this case he would be telling the truth, Anderson could have gone to another minor league to jump start his career like Jungle Fight, WEC or King Of The Cage but somehow chrome dome got him. Amazingly tosspot gave him some decent opponents, Lee Murray was top class at the time and Jorge Rivera later became a UFC mainstay. Fryklund and Stout also had stints in the UFC.

 

Cage Rage was also home at some stage Vitor Belfort, Babulu and Ken Shamrock. And also let Michael Bisping, John Hathaway and Brad Pickett showcase their talent to get noticed by the UFC. Numerous others UFC/Pride vets passed through as well.

 

For such a bumbling cowboy that is not bad, in fact it is fucking incredible. When I first got into MMA in 2005 Cage Rage was liked by hardcores, but even then people knew it was a joke. Cabbage got battered and robbed the day he was meant to fight was the top of the iceberg. Dave Legeno was the main problem, the rumor I read in print and heard personally of a friend close to the UK scene was that at least two of his fights were fixed to cash in on his fame, as he appeared in Batman Begins and Harry Potter. I also got told Anderson got racist abuse when he fought Murray, that is the sort of fans Cage Rage would appeal to with its London Gangsta feel that was a fucking horrible advert for MMA. Other than a story I got told of Ian Freeman dying on his arse doing stand up comedy every story I get told about British MMA involves Dave making a tit out of himself in some way.

 

It is amazing Cage Rage lasted so long after what I have seen since then. The Alex Reid vs Jason Barret thing someone posted the other month was a shambles both the match and build up, and the other week someone showed me his newest great idea Ultimate Ball. How did this moron once run a promotion that was arguably the 4th or 5th biggest in the world in 2005-2007.

 

I do not think he is a nasty man or anything, but I fail to grasp how he has done so well with his amateur approach and shady tactics. For that reason I feel he is a overachiever to the highest level. Plus I still have nightmares about his rendition of Sex Is On Fire that was on Youtube a while back.

Edited October 16, 2012 by jimufctna24

[Egg Shen]

i know O'Donnell comes across as a bit of a prat, but he must be some kind of shrewd businessman behind the scenes. MMA promoters seem to come and go but O'Donnell's stayed put, he must know what hes doing behind the scenes, it just sucks to see him front of camera because its clear to see that he harms his own product to fuel his ego. It's a weird fucking thing.

 

Still, fight-wise ive always enjoyed the shows hes put on.