General politics discussion thread

[d-d-d-dAz]

I know its controversial, especially from someone who's historically been left leaning, but I'm at pains to disagree with the hike in VAT. Granted, I'd have preferred a smaller increase or, indeed, a staggered increase up to 20% so as to allow inflationary increases in the private sector wages to ease some of the pain but, in what is essentially a budget signalling an 'age of austerity', I think a tax rise that effects everyone is apt. Other measures such as the raise in the income tax threshold should limit the sting to the poorest (as well as the return to earnings link as concerns pension). I also disagree that it is in line with the coalitions seemingly small state, libertarian + individualism ideology.

 

I think the CGT rise is modest, considering some economists and analysts were predicting a flat rate of 50%. I'm assuming that the treasury's preference was the 'Redwood taper', but decided it was too clunky a policy. As such, separating the rate paid by low to middle income savers from that paid by high income savers, to me, seems a good compromise. Though, I would have liked to have seen a higher top rate to curb speculator recklessness.

 

I'm surprised, too, that there wasn't a measure announced that out-of-work benefits claimants would be made to take part in community volunteer work as a condition of their claims.

 

Other things that get two, worryingly blue thumbs up;

 

PUBLIC SECTOR PAY REVIEW; limiting the top earners to a maximum of 20% of that of the lowest earners.

Frozen Child Benefits; Controversial yes, but I tend to agree that it is a more attractive proposition than taxing the benefits so that the mother is then taxed more than an out of work partner and of arbitrary means testing.

Medical Assessment of Disability allowance; not sure how it'll work in practice, but in theory it is long overdue. I do worry that this could lead to a fixing of a system, whereby more and more people cite 'depression' and the like.

In general, business encouraging tax reductions are favourable. Reduction of corporation tax to a competitive level, as well as the rate for small, local industries being reduced to 20% is all good. So, too, I think the measure for employers outside of London to get a NI exemption up to

Edited June 22, 2010 by d-d-d-dAz

[JNLister]

Can anyone find a reliable reference (preferably from the government, but a credible news site would do) as to whether or not the VAT on home fuel bills has gone up from 5% to 6%. I swear I heard Osbourne mention it, but I can't see it in the budget document itself.

[MinceMcMahon]

This VAT hike is a disgrace. Everybody knows that once it goes up, it rarely if ever comes back down again. The cost of living has gone up forever.

 

Please explain then how else you are going to pay for the Billions and Billions of debt that the countries in?

 

There are other ways of doing that. VAT takes no account of anyone's ability to pay, it's regressive taxation and will hit the poorest for years to come. Believe it or not we don't pay much tax in relation to other states in Europe. We should be increasing tax on those who are able to pay.

 

The rise in VAT isn't fair, in fact it's morally wrong and the decision to do it was done for ideological reasons, not just to clear debt.

 

 

Err surely a tax that applies to all and doesnt leave anyone out, is actually the fairest way of doing it? 2.5 percent isnt exactly massive?

 

What ideological reasons are you alluding to ?

 

Indirect taxes such as VAT take a higher proportion of income from those on low incomes, reversing the positive impact of direct taxes. Most people will end up paying on average an extra

Edited June 22, 2010 by MinceMcMahon

[d-d-d-dAz]

I think the reason the public sector is taking such a bashing is partly due to the similar ideological beliefs of Cameron conservatism and the David Laws/Nick Clegg brand of Orange Book neoliberalism. But, similarly, I think all but the most stubborn of socialists has to realise that a) the state is bloated (filtering into areas of public life where it simply doesn't need to); b) government spending is all too often absorbed into useless bureaucracy, and the 'non jobs' this creates and c) when you need to cut government spending, the easiest way to do this is by taking the axe to the most direct of government expenditure.

 

Some analyst on BBC News (i think) suggested looking at quotas and tariffs on imports to encourage industry to serve, primarily, the domestic market and encourage the creation, and maintenance, of low skilled work. Whilst this may serve to create jobs in the short term, the price of higher taxes ALWAYS increase prices, worsening social justice on the whole.

 

Recession seems to bring the worst out in people, willing us into a protectionist, populist post-industrial import substituting economy. There's so many examples as to why that's stupid, I'd die before I finished listing them...

Edited June 22, 2010 by d-d-d-dAz

[patiirc]

Indirect taxes such as VAT take a higher proportion of income from those on low incomes, reversing the positive impact of direct taxes. Most people will end up paying on average an extra

[MinceMcMahon]

Indirect taxes such as VAT take a higher proportion of income from those on low incomes, reversing the positive impact of direct taxes. Most people will end up paying on average an extra

Edited June 22, 2010 by MinceMcMahon

[patiirc]

We're not about to end up like Greece.

 

Anyway, I'd don't have a problem paying higher taxes in order to have better services and live in a more egalitarian state because I think it's fair. That's the culture I was brought up in and those are the values I hold. A lot of people where I live rely on the public sector and I think it's a bit daft to launch an all out attack on the state which didn't cause a problem in the first place. The problem in my area is that the private sector is too small, not that the state is too big.

 

Here's what I meant by Transaction Tax

 

Yeah I would raise inheritance tax on the richest estates. It perpetuates inherited wealth, which has fucked up the UK for too long.

 

 

That Robin Hood article is hard going! Basically you want to tax e- transactions re shares giving the money directly to charity

 

Kinda defeats the whole point of paying off a deficit if its not going to Government coffers?

 

We are not about to end up like Greece, Spain or whomever? Have you seen how poor the pound is currently and the credit rating warnings we have had. The country is teetering on the edge with regards to what it can and cant do. A run on the pound, another bank, a double dip, a partuicularly poor days trading or any further inroads into BP (pensions, hedgefunds etc all use shares in BP forgrowth dividends etc ) and then we would be utterly butt- fucked.

 

Why is it daft to cut excess in what is something that just haemorrhages money hither and thither, just because its your local industry.. Ask miners, ship builders, factory workers and so on how trying to save something that isnt viable anymore goes!

 

You know this raising the inheritance taxes on the richest estates.. its been done before and failed.. going back some time Country piles getting smaller is a r smaller and smaller shows this.. So there are less big houses. you can only squeeze so much and then subsequent sub dividing of houses into flats or other uses means that there is no future value in it. Its basically a one off hit. With increases in equity releases and people borrowing to pay off their debts. I dont think it would make a massive inroads and is why iirc people were looking at increasing inheritance thresholds even given the current situation as there is naff all to off set the pension deficit and would cause issues for the state pension.

 

 

Please explain how inherited wealth has fucked up the UK?

[David]

Please explain then how else you are going to pay for the Billions and Billions of debt that the countries in?

Did you see my post where I suggested that the Government actually make the wealthy pay their fair share of taxes?

 

That might work.

 

We're not about to end up like Greece.

You're 100% correct there.

 

The Greeks at least had the balls to stand up and say something when their Government started taking the piss.

 

I doubt we'll see the same response from the spineless, selfish majority in this great nation of ours.

Edited June 23, 2010 by David

[The King Of Swing]

We must all make sacrifices but some must make more then others.

[kjh]

We as a country/Kingdom got off very lightly with this budget and it was meant to be harsh. Wonder what else could be done if the shit continues to hit the fan

 

There is no right or wrong in these things but something has to be done and its always gunna piss some one off. The plain fact is we need to clear our debts pronto or end up like Greece or worse. The coalition thinks that what they have done will do this. Instead of seeing that this transcends party politics and believes people will just bleat and moan saying typical this and typical that and its always the same.

 

I'd wait to see the affects of the Budget on employment before concluding that "We as a country/Kingdom got off very lightly". "We need to clear our debts pronto or end up like Greece or worse" is not a "plain fact", it's actually highly debatable and many economists disagree. Here's a couple of recent columns by Paul Krugman that explain why this deficit hysteria is silly:

 

That

[patiirc]

I'd wait to see the affects of the Budget on employment before concluding that "We as a country/Kingdom got off very lightly". "We need to clear our debts pronto or end up like Greece or worse" is not a "plain fact", it's actually highly debatable and many economists disagree. Here's a couple of recent columns by Paul Krugman that explain why this deficit hysteria is silly:

 

That

[David]

Well, it would appear that the 'Tories are pressing ahead with their immigration cap.

 

It'll be interesting to see how this affects relations within the coalition Government.

 

Theresa May will stand firm amid calls from some Cabinet colleagues for a rethink on the annual limit to insist the Tory manifesto pledge will go ahead.

 

A temporary limit on some migrant workers will be imposed with almost immediate effect while a consultation is carried out on how a more permanent cap can bring about significant reductions in migrant numbers.

 

It comes after the plan was criticised by some business leader who fear it will make it harder for them to recruit the necessary skilled staff.

 

A number of ministers, including David Willetts, the Universities minister, and Michael Gove, the Schools Secretary, are also said to have concerns that too low a cap might hurt companies and colleges in attracting the best talent.

 

Many of the Liberal Democrat members of the Cabinet, who campaigned against a cap before the election, will also be uneasy about a limit.

 

However, David Cameron, the Prime Minister, has promised to bring net immigration, which is currently 176,000 a year, down from "hundreds of thousands to tens of thousands" and an annual cap is the only realistic prospect of achieving that.

 

The pledge of a limit proved a key vote winner during the election and was repeated in the Coalition Agreement last month.

 

A total of 190,640 foreign workers and dependants moved to Britain last year, despite unemployment hitting 2.5 million.

 

It emerged earlier this month that more than 1.1 million jobs, half the total created under Labour, were taken by immigrants who could have been refused work permits.

 

The non-EU migrants were handed the work permits despite there being hundreds of thousands of Britons out of work.

 

At the time Mrs May said: "This proves that immigration was out of control under Labour, and it proves beyond doubt the dishonesty of their "British jobs for British workers" campaign.

 

"The new government will bring net migration down from the hundreds of thousands to the tens of thousands.'

 

And on Thursday, Damian Green, the immigration minister, said: "We believe that immigration has been far too high in recent years, which is why the new government will reduce net migration back down to the levels of the 1990s

[David]

Following the announcement that the UK Government plans to lift the retirement age for men to 66, it's interesting to see the general publics lack of reaction to this and how it contrasts with the reaction of the Fench, who are seeing their retirement age being changed from 60;

 

Tens of thousands of workers took to the streets in cities across France today to protest against government plans to raise the minimum retirement age of 60 as part of a reform of the costly pension system.

 

Trade union leaders said the marches were the first step in a long struggle to defend the retirement age, a trademark reform of the late Socialist President Francois Mitterrand, against the current government which says it has no alternative.

 

Transport was working almost normally and between 10 and 20 per cent of public service workers went on strike in schools, the post office and France Telecom. A poll for the Le Parisien daily said 62 per cent of those responding were ready to demonstrate.

 

One of the earliest marches, in Marseille, drew a larger turnout than a previous protest day in March. Unions estimated the crowd at 80,000 while police gave a figure of 12,000.

 

Estimates for the Paris march were due later today.

 

 

[bobbins]

It's a sad day when even the French have more balls than the UK.

The French have always had far more balls than us in terms of defending their labour rights and standing up for themselves. It's just the Americans have painted them as cowards because they refuse to aid their imperial crusades, killing and dying for oil and power. Again, realistically an act of bravery and strength.

[Chest Rockwell]

Word.. You gotta admire the French for doing what they believe whether you agree with it or not, and being willing to kick up a stink even if it is easy to paint a picture of petulance.

 

On the other hand I have rarely seen anything other than lazy and apathetic acceptance from the British.