Smokin' Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 I'm another not convinced with Robson.  Adam Lyth deserves a chance.  He's 26 with decent amount of county experience, in great form for Yorkshire who are top of the county championship, fantastic fielder. Lyth is a good shout and I'd be up for him being given a chance, though I think if Robson is dropped, Carberry will get another chance. In the long term, the obvious positions that need improving for England are an opener and a spin bowler. The all-rounder in the team should be either Woakes or Stokes, maybe allowing Riley or someone like that to come into the team as designated spinner.  I'd guess it'd be something like:  Cook Lyth Ballance Bell Root Buttler Stokes Broad Anderson Plunkett/Jordan/whoever Riley/Kerrigan/whoever  Thinking about fast bowlers, which is also a position that may also need improving, Finn has bowled well when I've seen him this year and seems to be improving after his dreadful form. I think he'll become a really good bowler in the future and I wouldn't mind him being picked again soon, providing his form stays steady. Woakes bowled well in the last test too and I'm not keen on Plunkett or Jordan. They, like Moeen who I also omitted, are very average with the bat and ball and it's not worth persisting with them when there are more promising options available, who may be raw but have a significant amount more potential. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fanny Pack Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 No Ali? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members gadge Posted August 3, 2014 Paid Members Share Posted August 3, 2014 I hope Sussex's Will Beer gets to the performance squad this winter or next. He's developing as a leg spinner, and handy with the bat already. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members gadge Posted August 5, 2014 Paid Members Share Posted August 5, 2014 Feeling quite pleased with my last post after Yasir Arafat and Will Beer just saw Sussex to an unlikely victory over Durham on Sky Sports just now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loki Posted August 7, 2014 Share Posted August 7, 2014 BOOM! Big day of cricket. Wickets falling all over the place. Looks like another cracking Test. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokin' Posted August 8, 2014 Share Posted August 8, 2014 No Ali? Â No, he's not good enough. If he was a better batsman, you could pick him as a second spinner but he's poor against the short ball and has shown weakness against spin, so there's not enough of an upside with his batting to warrant keeping him in the team. His bowling is the reason he is in the team, however, he's nothing more than a part time spinner. At county level, he has an average of nearly 40, which is indicative of his effectiveness as a bowler so I don't see a long term role for him unless his batting significantly improves. 18 wickets for England so far is impressive but numbers can be deceptive and in the case of Moeen, most of those wickets have come from poor batting rather than good bowling. Â There are a few good all-rounder options for England at the moment with Stokes, Woakes, Jordan, Bresnan to name four.. All but Jordan are more effective at county level and when playing for England, have all looked like better all-rounders. If we are going to go with an all-rounder, which I think we should, it should be a fast bowler and then bring in a natural spinner, someone like Riley, Kerrigan, Briggs or the steady Tredwell, to provide spin. A balance like this would be better for England in the long run, I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators PowerButchi Posted August 8, 2014 Moderators Share Posted August 8, 2014 In other words, England needs a Graham Hick in his off-spin pomp.  #Hick4England Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loki Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 Â No Ali? Â No, he's not good enough. If he was a better batsman, you could pick him as a second spinner but he's poor against the short ball and has shown weakness against spin, so there's not enough of an upside with his batting to warrant keeping him in the team. His bowling is the reason he is in the team, however, he's nothing more than a part time spinner. At county level, he has an average of nearly 40, which is indicative of his effectiveness as a bowler so I don't see a long term role for him unless his batting significantly improves. 18 wickets for England so far is impressive but numbers can be deceptive and in the case of Moeen, most of those wickets have come from poor batting rather than good bowling. Â There are a few good all-rounder options for England at the moment with Stokes, Woakes, Jordan, Bresnan to name four.. All but Jordan are more effective at county level and when playing for England, have all looked like better all-rounders. If we are going to go with an all-rounder, which I think we should, it should be a fast bowler and then bring in a natural spinner, someone like Riley, Kerrigan, Briggs or the steady Tredwell, to provide spin. A balance like this would be better for England in the long run, I think. Â Â Has today convinced you to change your mind? Â Not bad for a part-time spinner, he's the second wicket taker for England in this series. Â I think he's secured his place for the time being. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokin' Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 Â Â No Ali? Â No, he's not good enough. If he was a better batsman, you could pick him as a second spinner but he's poor against the short ball and has shown weakness against spin, so there's not enough of an upside with his batting to warrant keeping him in the team. His bowling is the reason he is in the team, however, he's nothing more than a part time spinner. At county level, he has an average of nearly 40, which is indicative of his effectiveness as a bowler so I don't see a long term role for him unless his batting significantly improves. 18 wickets for England so far is impressive but numbers can be deceptive and in the case of Moeen, most of those wickets have come from poor batting rather than good bowling. Â There are a few good all-rounder options for England at the moment with Stokes, Woakes, Jordan, Bresnan to name four.. All but Jordan are more effective at county level and when playing for England, have all looked like better all-rounders. If we are going to go with an all-rounder, which I think we should, it should be a fast bowler and then bring in a natural spinner, someone like Riley, Kerrigan, Briggs or the steady Tredwell, to provide spin. A balance like this would be better for England in the long run, I think. Â Â Has today convinced you to change your mind? Â Not bad for a part-time spinner, he's the second wicket taker for England in this series. Â I think he's secured his place for the time being. Â Â Moeen bowled well today - I thought the piece on his pace was interesting - but the Indians gave away their wickets too easily. It'd be unthinkable that an Indian team could bat so poorly against spin 5-10 years ago. What happened to them? It's like they think Moeen is absolutely useless and he's clearly not, yet by treating him with such little respect, they're gifting him careless wickets. Pujara was unlucky but Rahane and Dhoni? It was very poor from them. I'll stand by what I said though, Moeen is good, potentially very good, for a part time spinner but there are better out and out spinners out there and I think for the balance of the team, it'd be better if we did have a pure spinner in our team. Â You're right though, he has secured his place and I don't expect him to be dropped any time soon. I just worry that if he doesn't improve considerably, we'll play Australia with him as first choice spinner and they'll dismiss his bowling and target him with the short ball. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fanny Pack Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 (edited) The Ashes next summer is going to be a huge test for Ali. If he can learn to control an end in the 1st innings and continue to mop up in the 2nd innings then hes gona be around for a long time. Â What are we saying he is now? Batsmen who bowls or genuine all rounder? Â I would still rather have Stokes than Jordan or Woakes. I think Jordan is a great one dayer but im not to sure in the longer format. Woakes doesnt do anything for me. Â Then there is the Robson issue, the lads not good enough but who is going to open? Â Heres my 11 for the first Ashes test. Â Cook Root Ballance Bell Morgan Ali Buttler Stokes Broad Finn Anderson Edited August 10, 2014 by Fanny Pack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hallicks Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 Then there is the Robson issue, the lads not good enough but who is going to open? Â Wasn't Carberry the 2nd highest run scorer in that last Ashes? I know its not saying much, but I can't believe his only chance is going to be the series when the team hit rock bottom, and he did ok. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokin' Posted August 16, 2014 Share Posted August 16, 2014 Robson should be dropped, though there aren't a whole lot of obvious replacements for him. Root may eventually become an opener but right now, I'm not sure who I'd go with. Adam Lyth, perhaps? There seems to be a shout for Hales but whilst he can be brilliant, I'm not sure how well he'd do at test level although those same question marks lingered over Buttler and he seems to be doing well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Devon Malcolm Posted August 20, 2014 Author Paid Members Share Posted August 20, 2014 Â No Ali? Â No, he's not good enough. If he was a better batsman, you could pick him as a second spinner but he's poor against the short ball and has shown weakness against spin, so there's not enough of an upside with his batting to warrant keeping him in the team. His bowling is the reason he is in the team, however, he's nothing more than a part time spinner. At county level, he has an average of nearly 40, which is indicative of his effectiveness as a bowler so I don't see a long term role for him unless his batting significantly improves. 18 wickets for England so far is impressive but numbers can be deceptive and in the case of Moeen, most of those wickets have come from poor batting rather than good bowling. Â There are a few good all-rounder options for England at the moment with Stokes, Woakes, Jordan, Bresnan to name four.. All but Jordan are more effective at county level and when playing for England, have all looked like better all-rounders. If we are going to go with an all-rounder, which I think we should, it should be a fast bowler and then bring in a natural spinner, someone like Riley, Kerrigan, Briggs or the steady Tredwell, to provide spin. A balance like this would be better for England in the long run, I think. Â Â What you neglect to mention in this post is that, yes, his career average is over 40. But his average in the last two seasons is at least 10 runs lower than that. So based on form, he's actually a very good pick for England. Â The fact is that I doubted whether he could do the job as a front line spinner - and he has. There's no tougher test than playing India on non-turning surfaces. Not only has he taken wickets, but he's bowled at a good economy rate as well. He could not have done any better. His next stop will be the West Indies in April, and he'll get some lovely turning pitches over there to boost his confidence with before the Aussies come over. Â As for your other suggestions for spinners, Riley's not ready yet. Kerrigan will never be ready in my opinion. Briggs is a one day bowler and not an especially effective one, while Tredwell's form has gone completely to pot in the last couple of seasons. So I don't think much of your alternatives. This is England. What we do is take talented young spinners and ruin them. By rights, Adil Rashid and Azeem Rafiq should be our front-line spinners by now - but the former barely bowls now and the latter barely plays. We have to make the best use of what we've got. Moeen's doing a fine job right now and deserves to be kept on and if his batting falls into place, a nice bonus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fanny Pack Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 (edited) Ive been watching Test cricket since the 1997 Ashes and in them 17 years we have arguably had only Swann and Giles (possibly Monty depending on the wicket) that could be considered a success. Â Some of the failed names on here will take you back! Â Croft Hick Sailsbury Such Schofield Dawson Blackwell Udal Batty Patel Tredwell Kerrigan Edited August 21, 2014 by Fanny Pack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Devon Malcolm Posted August 21, 2014 Author Paid Members Share Posted August 21, 2014 Some of those are not failed names though. Â Hick was never a front line spinner but he should have done more bowling - he could easily have done as good a job as Carl Hooper did for years for the West Indies. Such won a couple of tests for England, which wasn't bad considering he only played about a dozen. His average was low 30s as well. Udal came back in his late thirties and won a test in India for us but otherwise barely played enough to be warranted a failure. Batty should be the next spinner England call on because he's in great form for Surrey and is precisely the type of spinner we need. Tredwell played one test! Plus he became extremely reliable in ODIs. As for Kerrigan, he bowled in one test innings! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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