UKFF Questions Thread V2

[IANdrewDiceClay]

It died the day Scoot Andrews hung em up.

[Maverick]

Slyk Wagner Brown was never out of the mags once upon a time.

[Reznor]

When did the indies become shit? I remember a great thread here on old indies, and 13 years ago everyone knew Reckless Youth, American Dragon, Spanky, Mike Rapada, Samoa Joe, Streve Bradley and all that

They were probably shit then too, we're just able to see a lot more of it nowadays. The fact that Reckless Youth turned out to be crap when he did start getting exposure lends some credence to that theory. Likewise with Quackenbush. Before the millenium, unless you could get localised TV of a regional promotion, about all that was available (without digging too deeply anyway) was the Super 8's and Omega. Those guys were pretty much just names we remembered from reading magazines.

 

13 years ago, CZW was the supposed great new thing on the indies and that was utter shit. And it was for the same reasons we hate it today. You only have to look back at those movefests and choregraphed shit like Fleisch and Storm during that Best of the Best tournament that was being raved about - that was a whole 11 years ago. And that was around the time all that godawful spot-obsessed nonsense with those hideous Mikey Whipwreck 'students' was all the rage.

Edited May 8, 2013 by Reznor

[TheShowOff]

13 years ago, CZW was the supposed great new thing on the indies

 

To who though? I remember seeing their shit on offthetoprope.com where I'd buy tapes and I thought it was low rent rank, judging by the covers. No forums I posted in talked about them either. People started piping up in 2002 for their TOD stuff, and when they started using (probably awful) cruiser weights (I remember TWO board exploding about the news Jonny and Jody were going there in 02/03 whenever it was.) But one mans shit is another mans gold I guess.

 

EDIT: Going Wayback~ you can see the official CZW covers back then, it looked trash to somebody who was getting used to the dizzy high standards of an ECW Pioneer release: http://web.archive.org/web/20010411001845/....com/main.shtml

Edited May 9, 2013 by TheShowOff

[air_raid]

Power Slam pimped out Best of The Best as brilliant the first 3 years. The Storm/Fleisch 100mph fuckfest is exciting the first time you're exposed to that type of match, and the one they had at BOTB2 is probably the smoothest and botch-free version I ever saw. To be fair to them, the nutty spots at least seemed to logically escalate in "wow factor" to the point that the 720 DDT is the maddest thing you've seen in the match and worthy of being the finish. But that type of match has a limited shelf life and when everybody adopts the idea that squeezing as much shit into 8 minutes is the best way to excite a crowd.... well, that's how you end up with a Maximo giving a Special K kid five powerbombs then transitioning into a sit-out Schwein variant for a fucking two count.

 

Also of note in 2002, the year in which Indies seemed to becoming en vogue for PS, an ICW show from the Elks Lodge got a report that featured a cleaned up Eddie Guerrero vs Low Ki and an undercard featuring many of the wrestlers that would be the backbone of the undercard for many of the early ROH shows. Speaking of which the second ROH show ending with the Ki/Danielson match refereed by (OMG!) Ken Shamrock got a mention and many subsequent ROH shows were featured in "Looking At..." and of course, the mag paid lots of attention to TNA in it's infancy.

 

Honestly, the appreciation for the actual indy product at the time was artificially high as the need for different styles of wrestling for the hardcore fan had been unfulfilled since the demise of WCW and ECW so anything different from what was going on every week on Raw seemed refreshing. That has worn off over time, especially with the growth of TNA - anybody that follows both WWE and TNA closely probably isn't arsed about anything else. Certainly I'm not.

 

Specifically in terms of ROH, they've suffered due to not really being ready for the last time they had to lose major players. At least when they lost Daniels, Ki and Styles in 2004, Joe, Punk and Gen Next were able to carry the load. After Punk left and by the time Joe was finally completely phased out, Danielson and McGuinness (and for a while Homicide) were ready to centre stage. But when Dragon and Nigel were both courted by the big guns.... well, we can use Aries on top again.... HEY! Let's make Jerry Lynn champion!..... right, best pull the trigger on Tyler now. Far too late. By the time Tyler bolted the company was left with Roderick Strong, Davey Richards and Eddie Edwards, who either aren't believable as the "best wrestler" on the roster, don't have the gravitas to be perceived as a "main event star", or both. They dropped the ball massively on not giving Davey the belt when their fans were ready to embrace him, so by the time his reign did come around nearly a full 2 years later, lots of fans like me who previously cared about ROH and it's title, shrugged and thought "well, I don't need to watch any of Davey's defences, I've seen him wrestle everyone worth mentioning over the last year or so." Steen also fucked off for a year at PRECISELY the moment he could have been the antidote to dull Davey's 45 minute armbar matches and by the time he was back, I'd stopped giving a shit. Part of the reason I followed ROH for years was that I cared about a lot of the wrestlers, and when I stopped caring, I stopped watching.

 

To be honest, I also think there's quite a lot of fans in the 25-35 age bracket that when they were younger watched EVERYTHING wrestling they could get their hands on - I've got loads of tapes of BritWres, CZW/IWA-MS, Gaea and whatever else I could tape off TWC - but now that they're older with commitments and less free time, it's about sticking to what you REALLY care about when you DO have time to watch wrestling. For me, that's New Japan. For most, it's WWE and/or TNA.

[IANdrewDiceClay]

WOW Magazine and their predictions of Homeless Jimmy being similar to Mick Foley might have crushed the magazine in the long run. Credibility died right there. Only found out years later via a John Zandig shoot interview that every article ever done on XPW was paid for by Rob Black. For years WOW/POW Magazine was basically FWA articles, XPW shit and April pissing Hunter. If I had a few quid I'm sure I could have sent pictures of me in my swimming trunks and my brothers leather jacket with the words "EHWF champion making waves in the States" and they'd have put me in the "Look Out For" section.

 

9-9-2000 - Show #25

CAGE OF DEATH: Lobo vs. Zandig

CAGE OF DEATH: Lobo vs. Justice Pain

Trent Acid vs. Nick Mondo

Jon Dahmer vs. Rockin' Rebel

Nate Hatred vs. Nick Berk

Yamakawa vs. Zandig

Wifebeater vs. Madman Pondo vs. Nick Gage

Fucking hell. Nick Berk was around in 2000? He pops up on every RF Video release desperate to get his head on camera. He was at an Al Snow training seminar about a year ago asking what he needs to do in a match. Give it up mate.

 

Best Nick Berk story was he set his gimmick table out at an indy show, Buff Bagwell walked over to him and said "you're going to have to move now". And he did. Buff then put his shirts and comedy hats on the table instead.

 

Also this discussion we are having about old indy wrestling is SO fucking thread worthy its unreal. So much to talk about on this subject. Old indy wrestling is both hilarious and fascinating.

Edited May 9, 2013 by IANdrewDiceClay

[PowerButchi]

I think WOW was mainly why I gave a shit about the indies. "Wow, Jason Lee! I need to check him out!". Then Jason Lee turned up in WCW was wasn't brilliant.

 

Also, loads of Fratton Wrestling Alliance and going on about a bloke called Shane (?) Heyward in it as "hometown hero".

[air_raid]

Nick Berk. Practitioner of the "Berkocet" one of my least favourite finishers ever, for three reasons.

 

(1) Sounds like shit.

(2) Looks like shit.

(3) "Berkocet" being a crap play on words on "Percocet" which is a pain killer. Surely the intention of your finish is to give your opponent pain?

 

Berk.

[Statto]

Also, loads of Fratton Wrestling Alliance and going on about a bloke called Shane (?) Heyward in it as "hometown hero".

 

It was Gary Hayward, IIRC. Only really remember the name from the FWA music CD, though.

[Reznor]

13 years ago, CZW was the supposed great new thing on the indies

 

To who though? I remember seeing their shit on offthetoprope.com where I'd buy tapes and I thought it was low rent rank, judging by the covers. No forums I posted in talked about them either. People started piping up in 2002 for their TOD stuff, and when they started using (probably awful) cruiser weights (I remember TWO board exploding about the news Jonny and Jody were going there in 02/03 whenever it was.) But one mans shit is another mans gold I guess.

 

EDIT: Going Wayback~ you can see the official CZW covers back then, it looked trash to somebody who was getting used to the dizzy high standards of an ECW Pioneer release: http://web.archive.org/web/20010411001845/....com/main.shtml

To you and I, sure, it didn't take long to catch on that it was muck. But around the turn of the millenium, they were receiving a lot of attention across the board. Most of it was for the shock value and novelty admittedly, but over the internet, in print, and amongst hardcore fans, CZW was being pretty heavily hyped. They brought the fleshshredding shit over from Japan and the novelty brought a lot of intrigue and curiosity. They coined their new 'ultraviolent' term which was becoming a bit of a buzzword, and established their own gimmick cage match long before the deathmatch torurnament came into being. Then you had the stir caused by controversial characters like Wifebeater, the rumours of Onita coming over to face Funk, talk of Matsunaga appearances, clowns like Rick Blade outdoing the Hardys in terms of jumping of high stuff (you need to check out that dive off the truck btw!), as well as their credibility being helped through occasionally bringing in real wrestlers like Juventud and Super Crazy as well as fly-ins like Jun Kasai and Minoru Fujita.

 

And of course, the big one for them; the tie-in with Big Japan which was pretty unfathomable to all who were familiar with them. But to those who knew little of CZW but were familiar with the Jap scene, that was a pretty big deal. Sure, the BJPW guys indulged in all that crazy bullshit, but strip that away and you basically had a fed of guys who were still pretty talented and would've done ok in a straight or traditional sleazy indie fed. Honma, Yamakawa, Mr Danger, Kasai, Teioh, Winger, Kamikaze, along with promising rookies like Sekimoto and Ito breaking through. They at least knew what they were doing.

 

Big Japan's stock was really high amongst the hardcore/internet/tape trading community around that time too, thanks in no small part to that Honma/Yamakawa series towards the tail end of the 90s. Yet here was some recently formed US indie group being positioned as their equal. When you became familiar with just how bad the CZW guys were, all you can do is marvel at the genius of Zandig or whoever it was who negotiated that deal. But as much as we could see that CZW was dreadful, that relationship was a big boost and definitely improved their credibility and perception amongst observers.

 

From the shows I saw, sure it wasn't translating into huge attendances or anything, but they were getting their name out, attracting a fair bit of spotlight and were probably as well known as any fed outside of the 3 main ones.

 

Fast forward a bit to around 01/02 and they were also receiving a lot of praise for all the guys they were showcasing who I touched on earlier - Red, SATs, Brian XL, Quiet Storm etc, in addition to CZW homemade guff like that flippy fellow Ruckus, the sick garden strimmer lad, and the west coast head-droppy spot artists they were starting to bring in also. Absolutely awful it all was, but doing as much spectacular shit in as short a space of time was generally looked on positively back then when it still felt like something of a novelty

 

In short, CZW were being hyped and praised by the same type of folk who were praising the likes of Ace Darling, Reckless Youth, Mike Quackenbush, Colorado Kid, Steve Bradley etc as Butch mentioned. The difference being, CZW became widely available so we could see that any praise or positivity about it was a mile out. Chances are, it was probably the same case with the mid-late 90s crop too.

 

Lets face it anyway, they can't have been up to much if ECW or WCW with their humungous roster never even took them on. Apart from Simon Diamond who wasn't anything to write home about either.

[PowerButchi]

LANCE Diamond. C'mon, he was the man in PWI along with Jimmy Cicero and Davey Jericho.

[air_raid]

LANCE Diamond. C'mon, he was the man in PWI along with Jimmy Cicero and Davey Jericho.

 

Well, that kid was always money.

 

[Sebby]

One thing I have always wondered... Paul Heyman owes people money from ECW (RVD mentioned it on the Rise and Fall of ECW DVD) and it was brought up in the Wrestlers being pricks thread. Question being is does anyone know if he ever paid what he owed them. I imagine he made enough from his time with the WWE to do it . Anyone have any ideas if he did, or was it a case of forget it?

[IANdrewDiceClay]

Of course not. He said in an interview years later that he felt he didn't owe them anything because ECW gave them name value to earn a living in the business following its demise or some shit. Typical excuse making promoter spin if you think about it. Heyman couldn't afford the amount he'd need to pay out. Here's what he owned in terms of fees, but royalties and PPV bonuses aren't included.

 

READER ALERT: For all the latest wrestling happenings, check out our News & Rumours section.

 

ECW's stunning money woes made public

By JOHN POWELL -- SLAM! Wrestling

 

To the shock of wrestling fans, ECW dirty laundry is finally being aired through documents released by the Southern District of New York Bankruptcy Court. ECW President, Paul Heyman, voluntarily filed for Chapter 11 protection under the U.S. bankruptcy laws on April 4th through the parent company of Extreme Championship Wrestling -- HHG Corporation -- thereby dissolving the notoriously hardcore wrestling promotion.

 

Heyman was represented in court by Joseph Capobianco of the Reisman, Peirez and Reisman law firm from Garden City, New York. Judge Adlai S. Hardin Jr. is presiding over the case. Lawyers representing the World Wrestling Federation, a creditor in the case, were also on hand.

 

The documents obtained by SLAM! Wrestling detail an expansive list of people, companies and government bodies ECW (Heyman and HHG) owes millions upon millions of dollars to. In total, Heyman through HHG Corp. has $8,881,435.17 in unpaid bills (all figures U.S. dollars). Heyman claims to only have $1,385,500 in assets. Heyman's assets include $2,000 in a personal bank account, ECW's video tape library (valued at $500,000), unsold ECW merchandise totaling $4,000, a 1998 Ford F 800 Truck worth $19,500 (Heyman still owes $14.455.14 on it) and forthcoming payments from In Demand, Acclaim and The Original San Francisco Toymakers that total $860,000.

 

Some of the creditors holding the largest unsecured claims are Annodeus Incorporated -- a subsidiary of Acclaim Entertainment ($1 million), The World Wrestling Federation ($587,500), Farm Club Online Inc. ($300,000), The Original San Francisco Toymakers ($250,000), MSG Network Inc. -- America's largest regional sports network ($244,000), American Cable Productions Inc. ($243,000), In Demand L.L.C. -- an American pay-per-view network ($150,000), wrestler Rob Van Dam ($150,000), wrestler Tommy Dreamer ($100,000), Stonecutter Productions (owned by former ECW lawyer Steve Karel - $75,000) and Karel himself, $50,000.

 

The filing reveals that the I.R.S. claims that Heyman hasn't paid his taxes either. Also, $30,000 is still owed to the New York State Department Of Taxation and Finance for taxes on ECW wrestling events and The State Of Connecticut is making the same "withholding taxes" charge stating that Heyman should pay them $4,000. Heyman and his lawyer are disputing these claims.

 

Noted in the enormous list of creditors comprised of cable companies, travel agencies, media corporations (including TNN), advertising agencies, hospitals, insurance companies, financial institutions, courier companies, universities and plaintiffs with personal injury suits against ECW are these former ECW wrestlers, managers and announcers:

 

Bill Alphonso: $5,000.

C.W. Anderson: $500.

Angel (Baldies): $500.

Scotty Anton: Unknown amount.

Steve Corino: None.

Justin Credible: $7,990.

Lou E. Dangerously: $7,000.

Juilo Deniro: $300.

Devito (Baldies): $500.

Simon Diamond: $9,000.

Danny Doring: $2,100.

Shane Douglas: $48,000.

Spike Dudley: Unknown amount.

Francine: $47,275.

Chris Hamrick: $300.

Don Callis: $12,000.

Little Guido: $25,000.

Jazz: $1000.

Jerry Lynn: Unknown amount.

Balls Mahoney: $4,000.

Tony Mamaluke: $600.

Dawn Marie: $9,000.

Thomas Marquez: $500.

James Mitchell (Sinister Minister): Unknown.

EZ Money: $300.

New Jack: Unknown amount.

Nova: $4,000.

Roadkill: $21,250.

Rhyno: $50,000.

Sabu: None.

The Sandman: Unknown amount.

Johnny Swinger: Unknown amount.

Joey Styles: $50,480.

Super Crazy: $5,000.

Tajiri: $5,000.

Rob Van Dam: $150,000.

Jack Victory: $3,000.

Mikey Whipwreck: $12,000.

Chilly Willy: $500.

 

Other names and companies known to wrestling fans:

 

Victor Quinones (Puerto Rico promoter): $12,000.00

World Wrestling Federation Entertainment: $587,500.00

Erich Kulas (the wrestler bloodied by New Jack that went to court, listed as 'Alleged pesonal injuries': unknown

J-Mar Championship Belts: unknown

 

Serving as its President, Secretary and Director, Paul Heyman owned 85 per cent of ECW while Annodeus Incorporated (a subsidiary of Acclaim Entertainment) held 15 per cent. Last year, ECW was forced off television by the World Wrestling Federation when they moved to The National Network (TNN). Overwhelmed by debt, ECW cancelled its house shows and its final pay-per-view. Some ECW talent have since joined Heyman in the World Wrestling Federation while others have signed on with the WWF-owned World Championship Wrestling.

Edited May 10, 2013 by IANdrewDiceClay

[iamthedoctor]

Ok so Ive decided to continue my marathon of wrestling so I have finished 2000 so felt thanks to some people on here to go back and watch the years of 1995 - 1997 where the early seeds of Attitude started. Are there any other shows worth watching next to Raw from this time period?

 

With 2000 you had Smackdown to accompany Raw where storylines continuing but what about 1995 onwards? I can only really think of Superstars but that had ended by 1996 I think. Shotgun Saturday Night I guess you could use for 1997 I think but maybe someone here has a better memory.

 

What was the longest wrestling match in WWE/WCW ever filmed? I recall on a episode of All American Wrestling Gorilla Monsoon claimed he wrestled a 2 hour match which got me thinking if anything else came close. I know the Iron man matches go one hour but Im pretty sure Flair & Steamboat did a 90 minute match on TV possibly PPV but not sure.