Chris Benoit dead

[Kenny McBride]

It wasn't exactly meant as a direct shot at you, Andi. But it's not even just the hardcore stuff anyway. Do you enjoy seeing guys take headdrops? Like the Benoit/Angle/Guerrero big suplexing style? It's all part of the same problem.

Oh behave kenny, the responsibility isn't for every fan out there to smark up and start disliking people getting hurt, in hardcore or any other style. Any more than we should stop liking boxing cos of brain damage, or football cos it fucks the guys legs forever, or ufc or anything else. The problem is that wrestlers will outdo each other, and until you stop that you can't stop it. And you can't stop that.So, yeah, things are bleak

So presumably Lou Thesz and Fred Blassie and Destroyer and Danny Hodge and any number of other old-timers weren't really pushing themselves? If it weren't for his car crash, Harley Race would still be in reasonable shape today. Terry Funk's knees are shot, sure, but he's still alive. So how come so many guys of the generation I grew up with are dead now? I just don't believe as a consumer that I can absolve myself of responsibility like that. Your attitude reminds me of people who refused to boycott South Africa during the apartheid years on the grounds that "it's going to happen no matter what we do," or people who don't vote but complain about what the government does. NO! As a consumer, you have the ULTIMATE power over any commercial organisation. If enough fans stand up and say "I'm not spending another penny on wrestling until the industry gets its house in order" then things WILL change, and a hell of a lot faster than you might expect. Money talks, and as long as people keep watching the TV and buying the PPVs, nothing will change. As soon as people stop and make it clear WHY they're stopping, things will change instantly.But then it's a lot easier to just say things can't ever change and enjoy the next exciting instalment of Raw, huh?

[edgecrusher]

How you can enjoy any installment of RAW these days I don't know. Doesn't seem that exciting from what I've heard. I boycotted WWE after the Guerrero storylines, and I'm never going back. I'll watch ROH, and I'll adore SHIMMER forever, but I will never help Vince McMahon make money ever again.Unless he somehow makes money through SHIMMER and ROH......Anyway, do we have confirmation that Daniel did or did not have Fragile X? Wasn't it reported that he and Nancy regularly attended a support group for Fragile X families? Just because Nancy's parents deny it doesn't mean its so. If indeed he didn't... bloody hell, it just gets weirder. Although killing him so he didn't have to live without his parents would still be a likely enough way of thinking. Man, what the hell was going through Benoit's head the day he killed Daniel? You could probably write an entire play based on that one question. I begin to wonder now, does the fact that Benoit seemingly went SO insane somehow absolve WWE of responsibility in the media's eyes? Nothing's going to change unless there's serious pressure put on the group, and that isn't going to happen if ultimately Chris' death is viewed as not being related to things like his ridiculous work schedule, constant pain, never being home and so on. To be honest I hope they DID play a part. I just want this fucking industry to CHANGE. The deeper you get into it, the bleaker and the dirtier and the darker it becomes. Yeah, WWE's performers put smiles on faces... but in the end it seems to cost their own far too often.Maybe melodramatic, and I guess they know the risks and the costs and all that lot, but still... it can't go on this way. It just isn't right.

[Kenny McBride]

That's what I've been saying. In the end, it doesn't matter that Vince can't really be held directly responsible for this, or maybe any of the deaths we've seen recently. The fact is that he's the only game in town for any non-Hispanic, non-Japanese person hoping to ever make a real living from wrestling, and FAR too many people are dying as a result of an industry that is, for all intents and purposes, his company and nothing else. If this case causes the necessary changes to be made, then the Benoit family may not have died in vain, and even in death, Chris Benoit might have done something powerful to make wrestling better.

[BurningHammer]

I tuned out of WWE after the Guerrero exploitation, but once we got Sky+ in the house I started recording the shows around the turn of this year. After Eddie died (and Shinya Hashimoto a few months before that) I could not watch any form of professional wrestling for about a week afterwards. No such reluctance this time on my part. Maybe it is the different circumstances surrounding the deaths, but maybe I have just reached an acceptance regarding wrestling, at least in the US.I have accepted that a significant percentage of my favourite wrestling moments have involved people hopped up to the max on steroids, painkillers, cocaine, alcohol and God knows what else.I have accepted that wrestlers are taking years off their life expectancy by pursuing their career.I would absolutely fucking love something to change, but accept it will not happen. Vince McMahon is conditioned to believe in big muscles equalling big money, and has now conditioned the majority of his companies fanbase to believe the same. A few guys will shrink, so will their push. If the Wellness Policy is extended to include mental health and concussion screening, then someone finally may be getting somewhere.I cannot get on my high-horse knowing the last thing on my mind when Chris Benoit and Eddie Guerrero were producing fantastic matches and television was whether they were compromising their health doing so. All I can hope is that if any change is announced, it is followed through completely, not just a few token suspensions and firings to make it look like the policy is being enforced before its all back to normal a few months later.

[bazhsw]

I'll watch ROH, and I'll adore SHIMMER forever, but I will never help Vince McMahon make money ever again.

I'm not having a go at you or anything like that (and I'm aware I'm taking your point a little out of context but I think it's an important consdieration) but I think it's very naive to put all the blame for wrestling's ills at Vince's door. The style being wrestled on the independents is just as likely in many respects to lead to painkiller addiction with all the high impact stuff. I accept that they often don't wrestle the same schedule but the drug problems are there. Independent wrestling is filled with veterans struggling with addiction yet still being booked. Likewise I suspect many of the wrestlers doing well on the indies will be looking for a helpful doctor if WWE shows any interest.WWE's attitude to physiques and general tolerance of drug problems over the years is a huge part of the problem but it is not the only roster with a problem. I've no idea about the attitudes in ROH's locker room for example but I would be amazed if there was no issues there with recreational / prescription drugs etc. Edited July 3, 2007 by bazhsw

[Kenny McBride]

I'm willing to bet most, if not all of the guys on the ROH roster (and every other roster in the world) are using or have used steroids at some stage. I'll almost guarantee they're using recreational drugs. Heavy use of pain pills is more likely in some ways, as many of the independents work a dreadfully brutal style, but less likely in others, as the guys have a week (maybe longer) to rest up before they have to work again. A fair number will have other jobs as well, so they can afford to take a couple of weeks off if need be too.Also, BH - that's about the saddest thing I've read all week. Is that what they call compassion fatigue? Eddy and Hash made you care, but you just can't bring yourself to get bothered about three more people dying? Surely three deaths (especially of guys you were a fan of) that probably wouldn't have happened if not for wrestling should make you care MORE than just two?

[DJ Stevie C]

Does it really matter that much? He murdered a seven year old child, do people really need to spend days arguing over how he did it?

I completely missed this response before Gossy, I'll answer it the best I can.It means everything.And I'm not thinking about poor Daniel Benoit, I'm, perhaps a bit selfishly, thinking of every wrestling fan and everyone involved in wrestling.What sounds better for them?"Benoit Strangled his son" or "Benoit choked his son to death"or"Benoit used his trademark wrestling move the "Crippler Crossface" to kill his son"Granted they all sound awful... But there could be a huge backlash against people who like wrestling as it now promotes murder and breeds killers and psychopaths in a lot of people's minds, and a lot of that is to do with sensationalism in the press when they don't really know for sure how the poor kid was murdered.

[Chaka Demus]

What sounds better for them?"Benoit his son" or "Benoit choked his son to death"or"Benoit used his trademark wrestling move the "Crippler Crossface" to kill his son"

They both sound the same because they both translate as "Benoit killed his 7 year old son"

[edgecrusher]

I'll watch ROH, and I'll adore SHIMMER forever, but I will never help Vince McMahon make money ever again.

I'm not having a go at you or anything like that (and I'm aware I'm taking your point a little out of context but I think it's an important consdieration) but I think it's very naive to put all the blame for wrestling's ills at Vince's door. The style being wrestled on the independents is just as likely in many respects to lead to painkiller addiction with all the high impact stuff. I accept that they often don't wrestle the same schedule but the drug problems are there. Independent wrestling is filled with veterans struggling with addiction yet still being booked. Likewise I suspect many of the wrestlers doing well on the indies will be looking for a helpful doctor if WWE shows any interest.WWE's attitude to physiques and general tolerance of drug problems over the years is a huge part of the problem but it is not the only roster with a problem. I've no idea about the attitudes in ROH's locker room for example but I would be amazed if there was no issues there with recreational / prescription drugs etc.

The thing is that every independent or other promotion these days in some ways takes its cues from WWE. Either they establish themselves by doing something 'more' (wrestling high impact in ROH's case) or they use a lot talent from that promotion. The actual market in which wrestling exists was shaped by WWE. Doesn't matter what promotion it is, they have to interact at some point.So no, I don't think its naive. TNA's locker room is worse than WWE's for drugs, as far as I can tell, but Vince is the origin of the current problem in my opinion. If he changed his ways, other promotions could and might even have to.

[DJ Stevie C]

What sounds better for them?"Benoit his son" or "Benoit choked his son to death"or"Benoit used his trademark wrestling move the "Crippler Crossface" to kill his son"

They both sound the same because they both translate as "Benoit killed his 7 year old son"

Oh shit did he? I didn't notice.Nice one Einstein.

[DJ Kris]

What sounds better for them?"Benoit his son" or "Benoit choked his son to death"or"Benoit used his trademark wrestling move the "Crippler Crossface" to kill his son"

They both sound the same because they both translate as "Benoit killed his 7 year old son"

I can except that it's parhaps all the same to you, but can you except that it isn't to a lot of other people? After all, if there was no different there would be no story in using his finisher to kill his son.

[lambyUK]

Lance Storm has updated his commentary with his views.

 

http://www.stormwrestling.com/070207.html

[kayfabeusmonkeyus]

It wasn't exactly meant as a direct shot at you, Andi. But it's not even just the hardcore stuff anyway. Do you enjoy seeing guys take headdrops? Like the Benoit/Angle/Guerrero big suplexing style? It's all part of the same problem.

Oh behave kenny, the responsibility isn't for every fan out there to smark up and start disliking people getting hurt, in hardcore or any other style. Any more than we should stop liking boxing cos of brain damage, or football cos it fucks the guys legs forever, or ufc or anything else. The problem is that wrestlers will outdo each other, and until you stop that you can't stop it. And you can't stop that.So, yeah, things are bleak

So presumably Lou Thesz and Fred Blassie and Destroyer and Danny Hodge and any number of other old-timers weren't really pushing themselves? If it weren't for his car crash, Harley Race would still be in reasonable shape today. Terry Funk's knees are shot, sure, but he's still alive. So how come so many guys of the generation I grew up with are dead now? I just don't believe as a consumer that I can absolve myself of responsibility like that. Your attitude reminds me of people who refused to boycott South Africa during the apartheid years on the grounds that "it's going to happen no matter what we do," or people who don't vote but complain about what the government does. NO! As a consumer, you have the ULTIMATE power over any commercial organisation. If enough fans stand up and say "I'm not spending another penny on wrestling until the industry gets its house in order" then things WILL change, and a hell of a lot faster than you might expect. Money talks, and as long as people keep watching the TV and buying the PPVs, nothing will change. As soon as people stop and make it clear WHY they're stopping, things will change instantly.But then it's a lot easier to just say things can't ever change and enjoy the next exciting instalment of Raw, huh?

Yeah, watching wrestling (incidentally have you stopped yet? Or is it ok because you whinge about it afterwards on a message board?) is just like boycotting a country still under apartheid rule.And of course the old timers were pushing themselves, they outdid the ones before, the new ones outdo that etc etc, it's just progress baby.And yeah, if everyone stopped watching because they think steroids and head drops and work schedules and pain killers are shortening lives then vinny would be forced to act. But 90% of wrestling fans don't go on boards, and buy dirt sheets and find out all this crap and nor should they. Anymore than we should stop watching films cos hollywoods riddled with coke and scientology coke wierdness, anymore than we stop listening to music because the music industries riddled with drugs.Or stop using banks because traders have as much chance of dying young of a heart attack as your average wrestler. Or snap and kill their kids after particularly heavy trades go wrong.Vinny could stop it if he wants, but he's making cash so he figures continue with becomming unfeasably rich.The marks could make a stand if they wanted, but they don't care.And the internet won't make a blind bit o difference one way or the other (again).There is one group who could stop it, and stop it tomorrow. And that's the wrestlers, if they all stop taking the pain pills, the juice etc and heal up if necessary then it stops tomorrow. Nothing vinny can do if the whole lot decide to do things a new way.But they wont, they've made there choice to do it this way, so fuck it - go with it. Or whine on here, but I'd lay good odds the whinging won't help

[kayfabeusmonkeyus]

I'll watch ROH, and I'll adore SHIMMER forever, but I will never help Vince McMahon make money ever again.

I'm not having a go at you or anything like that (and I'm aware I'm taking your point a little out of context but I think it's an important consdieration) but I think it's very naive to put all the blame for wrestling's ills at Vince's door. The style being wrestled on the independents is just as likely in many respects to lead to painkiller addiction with all the high impact stuff. I accept that they often don't wrestle the same schedule but the drug problems are there. Independent wrestling is filled with veterans struggling with addiction yet still being booked. Likewise I suspect many of the wrestlers doing well on the indies will be looking for a helpful doctor if WWE shows any interest.WWE's attitude to physiques and general tolerance of drug problems over the years is a huge part of the problem but it is not the only roster with a problem. I've no idea about the attitudes in ROH's locker room for example but I would be amazed if there was no issues there with recreational / prescription drugs etc.

The thing is that every independent or other promotion these days in some ways takes its cues from WWE. Either they establish themselves by doing something 'more' (wrestling high impact in ROH's case) or they use a lot talent from that promotion. The actual market in which wrestling exists was shaped by WWE. Doesn't matter what promotion it is, they have to interact at some point.So no, I don't think its naive. TNA's locker room is worse than WWE's for drugs, as far as I can tell, but Vince is the origin of the current problem in my opinion. If he changed his ways, other promotions could and might even have to.

Lol behave, mcmahon didn't invent drugs or steroids in wrestling. It's been there for years, hogan was juicing huge since pre wwf, and a bunch of other were as well. And before then the degree of alchohol abuse was legendary, which you can be pretty sure led to a fair few deaths.Yes wwe influenced promotors, some copied and some did the opposite. ROH does the opposite, with the same problems. TNA does the same, same problems. That's not vince's fault, that's the industry as it stands and as it was.

[Parkamarka]

There is one group who could stop it, and stop it tomorrow. And that's the wrestlers, if they all stop taking the pain pills, the juice etc and heal up if necessary then it stops tomorrow. Nothing vinny can do if the whole lot decide to do things a new way.But they wont, they've made there choice to do it this way, so fuck it - go with it. Or whine on here, but I'd lay good odds the whinging won't help

If you think it's more feasible for:a) an entire company of wrestlers - working in a precarious hierarchy within an environment where everyone knows one word out of place can seriously fuck with your career prospects - to, en masse, change the entire drug/body image culture of the WWE, despite the fact that every previous attempt at unionising or mass power plays from beneath has been instantly squashed from above;than:b) it would be for Vince McMahon - in an age where UFC outdraws his product largely based on exciting, skilled fighters weighing between 150-200lbs - to implement the changes necessary to wean his audience off the perception - that he created - that guys have to be huge to be worth watching, without sacrificing too much of his income;then frankly you're the one who's delusional. As it is, given how patronising your posts have been, I just think you're trolling.I'd also like to know why you think they would stop taking the pain pills without any corresponding changes in - you know - THE REASON THEY'RE IN PAIN? Edited July 3, 2007 by Parkamarka