Official ROH Discussion Thread

[Philjax]

There must be very few people out there who hand out ***1/2 to over 3 matches on most ROH shows.

Not if they've got any taste. And i said 2-3. There is always at least 2 matches worthy of ***1/2 or more on the majority of shows.

But you seem to be the sort of guy who rated a match on who is in it, and its length, rather than what they actually do and how entertaining it is. Even if you really enjoyed a Hagadorn/Jacobs match, and was bored by a Dragon/Aries match, I'm sure you'd rate the Dragon match higher.

Completely wrong. On all accounts. You didn't read a thing i wrote really did you.Something I didn't quote but thought i'd mention is that i don't hate any style of wrestling (eg the brawls i mentioned) but there have been quite a few in the ROH/CZW feud for example and some just haven't worked. The one on the 100th Show was phenomenal though and saved an otherwise dire card.Obviously we'll have to agree to disagree although most would disagree with your star system.Just so you know this is how mine works and i can't imagine that many people differ really:***** Obvious**** 3/4**** 1/2 (Example: Do Fixer Vs Blood Gen.)**** 1/4 (AmDrag Vs Shelley/Rave/Homicide or Joe/AmDrag Vs KENTA/Marufuji)**** Very Good (Joe Vs Whitmer, Blood Embassy Vs Do Fixer, KENTA Vs Strong)*** 3/4 (Styles Vs Sydal, Dragon Kid & Horiguchi Vs Styles & Sydal) *** 1/2 (Daniels Vs Shelley, Sydal Vs Aries, Whitmer Vs Jacobs)*** 1/4 (Davey Richards Vs Jimmy Rave, McGuinness Vs Claudio)*** Above Average ("Average" being undercard dirge that you averagely see on most shows and all WWE TV shows)** 3/4------------------------------------------------Anything under this line i wouldn't watch more than once unless there was some crazy one off spot where Jack Evans almost dies or a brutal (mahoney scale) chair shot for instance** 1/2** Passable (as in nothing special whatsoever but nothing offensive)* 1/2* Dud (Pearce Vs Primeau & Franklin)I don't use anything under * because it's pointless and i don't bother trying to decide whether something is **1/4 or **1/2.Hope that helps.

[WU LYF 4 LYF]

Doesn't really 'help', as such, since I haven't actually seen any of your star ratings

i don't hate any style of wrestling

I find that comment a tad strange, since you said in the last post that you 'detest' brawls.I know most would disagree with my star ratings, but I feel giving a match *** is a lot more worthwile if not every match gets that rating.I figure any match over **** should be phononmenal, and thus I rate few matches on that level, and only two in ROH history.

[edgecrusher]

That sounds overly curmudgeonly to me.

 

NOAH is credited with constant ****+ main events, and most of the time that's a fair assessment. I don't think it's really any different in ROH. Just ROH's undercard is a bit worse than NOAH's, and it's top level isn't quite as good.

[Philjax]

History!?Fuck me. I think you need to put into perspective that promotions such as NOAH, ROH and Japanese or Japanese influenced wrestling promotions in general are always responsible for the match of the years and that's not because it's the cool thing to do, it's because they are the fucking bollocks most of the time. Even a shitty NOAH undercard match shits on the best thing WWE can produce all year for the most part (certainly proven this year). This is also why a great deal of ROH matches deliver with the goods.ROH offers a style that is very likely to produce the goods often because unlike WWE or a lot of TNA, the performers go out there and put on a dramatic, realistic style, practically killing eachother (and in the case of Jacobs and Whitmer when there are together, almost kill eachother). That for me demands a little respect and thanks and in some cases a rating befitting of the match.Guys like AmDrag, Aries, McGuinness, KENTA etc don't get ****1/2 stars just because they turn up. It's because they are the cream of the crop and some of the best wrestlers on the planet. This is also why that when you see KENTA Vs Aries on the card you can automatically predict that it will be over **** (and as far as i've heard it is - it's on my next DVD)Basically if you think that any match that Trik Davis could possibly be involved with (especially a competitive squash) on the same card as a Daniels/McGuinness match deserves the same rating, you need your head checked. If those two only worked the crowd for a few minutes and exchanged some chops (and i bet they did a hell of a lot more than that in the match you reviewed) it would be better psychology and ringwork than Davis and Jacobs could produce in a limetime of matches together.

[alexander]

Oi Lantern, how dare you watch ROH DVDs and not do a detailed review of them!

I simply don't have the energy to write a lot at the moment. Not that anyone cares, but I'm having a boat load of personal and professional problems right now and I'm at a pretty low ebb. Such moods are not useful for my usual high tempo, laugh a minute reviewing style, so nothing is getting written about in detail.Just to prove I have been watching the shows, the following matches are really, really good - Strong Vs Jacobs (No, really, it's fucking brilliant)Cabana and Lethal Vs Rave and Rinuaro (No, really)KENTA Vs Roderick Strong (Not awesome, but shit kicking fun)KENTA Vs Austin Aries (Loses steam towards the middle, but a real fun contest of who can be a bigger dickhead)ROH Vs CZW; Cage Of Death (The most perfectly booked match ROH will ever promote)

[WU LYF 4 LYF]

I think you need to put into perspective that promotions such as NOAH, ROH and Japanese or Japanese influenced wrestling promotions in general are always responsible for the match of the years and that's not because it's the cool thing to do, it's because they are the fucking bollocks most of the time.

I agree. Nagata/Bernard, Inoue/Akiyama and Strong/KENTA are tied for my match of the year. It doesn't mean that a lot of stuff on the ROH undercard isn't crap, and that some of their main events are underwhelming. There have been very few years when an American match has been MOTY, but still, it happens, and fact is, although Dragon and McGuinness are far more talented, Hogan and orton put on a match at Summerslam far better than their match at GN.

Even a shitty NOAH undercard match shits on the best thing WWE can produce all year for the most part

Do you actually watch NOAH undercards, are are you just trying to appear cool with your 'Puro knowledge'? There are loads of worthless 6 man tags and boring undercard matches on NOAH cards, and WWE is capable of having some really good matches. Finlay/Mysterio is better than most NOAH undercard matches.Just because it's Puro, doesn't mean it's great.

ROH offers a style that is very likely to produce the goods often because unlike WWE or a lot of TNA, the performers go out there and put on a dramatic, realistic style, practically killing eachother

Just beause they are nearly kill each other doesn't mean it's great.CZW regularly has wrestlers out there looking like they're trying to kill each other, doesn't mean the matches are all that good.Your argument has been really inconsistent. First you're saying that 'mat wrestling is what it's all about', but now you're saying you like it when the wrestlers nearly kill each other with realistic moves.Sorry, but a lot of stuff in ROH looks far more unrealistic than other stuff. Yesm the srikes are hard, but some of the spots and sequences look totally choreograhed.

This is also why that when you see KENTA Vs Aries on the card you can automatically predict that it will be over ****

Well, I think Aries is better than Strong, but at the same time Strong had much the better match with KENTA.I certainly wouldn't call Aries one of the best wrestlers in the world either, you said yourself you've found most of his tag matches this year boring.

Basically if you think that any match that Trik Davis could possibly be involved with (especially a competitive squash) on the same card as a Daniels/McGuinness match deserves the same rating, you need your head checked.

That's your problem. Yes, it's obvious that Nigel is better than Trik Davis, but Nigel went out there and wrestled a predictable and meandering main event that when we look at it, wasn't anything great. Jimmy Jacobs is probably the most entertaining guy on ROH shows right now, and managed to suprise me by taking a poor wrestler to a decent undercard match. And that's all both matches were, decent. I won't be going back to watch either of them again, but I enjoyed both of them the same, and thought given the context, Jacobs and Trik did a lot more than Dragon/Nigel.

f those two only worked the crowd for a few minutes and exchanged some chops (and i bet they did a hell of a lot more than that in the match you reviewed) it would be better psychology and ringwork than Davis and Jacobs could produce in a limetime of matches together.

Oh man Please explain to me the great 'psychology and ringwork' of Nigel/Dragon. Seiously, you're looking for stuff that isn't there. And actually, in the match I saw Dragon and Nigel did little of note towards working the crowd- although, I'll grant you, they did exchange some chops, go through some of their combined reportoire, do a generic finishing spell with a few lariats and kikced out finishers in for good measure. And yes, it wasn't all that interesting.But I'm sure you're going to tell me what a wonderful story they told, about McGuinness' valiant efforts to win, and how his final lariat was a throwback to when his father attacked him back in 1976 at the family home. We've all been there, reading to much into the 'psychology' and 'storytelling' of a match, when most of the time, we're finding stuff that isn't actually there.Jacobs and Davis worked a fun, hard hitting and fast paced opener which got the crowd hot, and furthered the Jimmy/Lacey storyline. I liked it just as much as the Nigel/Dragon match, and if I was rating soleley on entertainment, the Jacobs match would be a lot higher.

[didcotfc]

I'm just watching Chi-Town Struggle. Words can not explain how bad the opening ROH student promo is. Really...it made my teeth itch it was so cringeworthy. Only Hagadorn looks anything like a wrestler from what I've seen. I know its good to break the guys in cos its the only way for them to improve but why should I suffer?! Possibly the worst promo I've ever seen....ever.I also can't help but feel glad that the CZW fued ends at the next show. The Homicide angle aside, its really starting to fizzle out which is a shame because the stuff during the milestone series was hot. Theres just been a few multi participant brawls too many. I couldn't help but wonder why the CZW guys attacked guys like Joe, Whitmer and Pearce but left the rest of the card unmolested? Surely if they were trying to bring about the end of ROH they'd do more than interfere with a few ROH guys. Also...when all this brawling is going on, where were the rest of the ROH guys? If ROH was taking the incursions seriously then whole locker room would rush out like at the anniversary shows. I don't know...there doesn't seem to be such a CZW threat because of it. Still really looking forward to cage of death though. Did they ever do a blow off to this on a CZW show too? Possibly with CZW emerging victorious on home turf?

Strong Vs Jacobs (No, really, it's fucking brilliant)

Agreed! That really was a great match when I didnt expect very much. Edited November 10, 2006 by didcotfc

[WU LYF 4 LYF]

Watched ROH Fight Of The Century.

 

Colt Cabana v Sal Rinauro was a fun opener. The legnth worked in its favour, and I much prefer them doing comedy spots for 7 minutes than working a competetive match. The current dynamic with the Embassy is pretty good, this got the crowd hot, and generally did what it was meant to. **1/4

 

Shane Hagadorn v Bobby Dempsey proved that the ROH fans are indeed sheep, as it contained a loud and wholehearted chant for possibly the worst wrestler to ever appear in ROH, Bobby Dempsey. So you can imagine my delight when this match ended afetr 10 seconds, and we were treated to a rather good Pearce/Hagadorn promo. I'd love to give this **, as it was just what I wanted from the match, but admittedly they didn't actually do much. *3/4

 

McGuinness/Daniels/Castagnoli/Lethal is next, in the return of the dreaded useless 4-Corner survival. This is every bit as bad as most of its predecessors, it isn't so bad when Claudio is in with either Bigel or Lethal, but apart from that, its predictable and fogettable action. *1/4

 

Aries + Strong v Briscoes v Irish Airborne v Sydal/Evans was nice enough action. Certainly better than the previous nights Ultimate Endurance, I enjoy all these teams apart from Irish Airborne, and they worked together well. Still could have done without the multiple dives, and in the end this is a fairly throwaway match, but it entertained. **1/4

 

Homicide/Whitmer v Pearce/Corino was in reality a totally average brawl, but the Corino promo and superb angle at the end made up for it. The action was a little too reminiscent of the ROH/CZW brawls which got rather stale, and the match went on too long. Having said that, I was feeling the hate, and Homicide put in a great performance. preferred the angle and the talking to the match though. **1/4

 

KENTA/Richards was quite your typical KENTA in NOAH match, in terms of its structure, in that the first half wasn't really that good at all, but they built to a great stretch with loads of insane bumps and nearfalls. That's pretty much the summary of this match, the first 10 minutes were really boring and paint-by-numbers KENTA, with Richards bringing zero to the table. It picked up though, and the last 5 minutes were excellent. Still the worst KENTA singles in ROH though.**3/4

 

Bryan Danielson v Samoa Joe

 

This was one match that did have me excited coming in. The atmosphere was amazing, and it certainly felt like a match that had been hyped for weeks. They certainly lived up to it at first, with an awesome first 15 minutes built around Joe destroying Dragon with kicks, and Dragon looking for an opening with the legs of Joe. However, they proved right my thoughts that this match would have been better going shorter- had they gone from the great beginning into the last 25 minutes or so, it would have been MOTY quite easily, but instead the match contained a lot of filler, and I felt my mind wandering on several occasions. The action was still good, and they did much better than most who go an hour, but a few times it didn't hold my attention. It picked up with some Dragon heeling and legwork, which was the highlight of the actual body of the match. The last 15 aren't as good as people have made out. It is good action, with some pretty believable nearfalls and counters, but you never felt the match was close to being over, and it lacked the urgency of Joe/Punk II. Furthermore, they blow about 3 or 4 spots in this time period, and aren't that good at covering them. The major issue here though, is that over 60% of what I see in the last 15, I've already seen on the show, and about 40% of it I saw in the previous match. A Super Ace-Crusher should be a protected move, but here we saw in three matches in a row. Similarly with some other spots, around 4 of them I saw in KENTA/Richards. Either the KENTA match goes earlier on the show, or they tone it down, because in this case some of the action felt a little stale. It all stems from most of the roster having the same moveset. But anyway, the match itself was really good; at times it looked world class, but it was dragged down by the length and other areas of the match that weren't that good. My ROH MOTY so far, but not as good as Joe/Punk II, and a long was behind Joe/Punk III. ***3/4

 

So it was a decent show in the end, with a really good main event, which does disapoint slightly, if only due to the high expectations coming in. The undercard is just about above average as well, so not a bad event at all.

Edited November 13, 2006 by anarchistxx

[alexander]

I'm just watching Chi-Town Struggle. Words can not explain how bad the opening ROH student promo is. Really...it made my teeth itch it was so cringeworthy. Only Hagadorn looks anything like a wrestler from what I've seen. I know its good to break the guys in cos its the only way for them to improve but why should I suffer?! Possibly the worst promo I've ever seen....ever.

I loves me some Shane Hagadorn. He's fat, he has bad tattoos, he throws wicked punches and he enters to an Alice In Chains song. All awesome things. He's getting some pretty great heat as well. Definately the stand out student.I know the CZW stuff sagged in the middle, but the blow off in the CoD is immense. I had no idea that ROH could ever book something so close to perfectly. Look forward to it.

[WU LYF 4 LYF]

For anyone who's interested, here

Edited November 13, 2006 by anarchistxx

[LaGoosh]

I know the CZW stuff sagged in the middle, but the blow off in the CoD is immense. I had no idea that ROH could ever book something so close to perfectly. Look forward to it.

Agreed. While I just about preferred the 100th show main event the Cage Of Death was still incredible. Eddie Kingston's entrance is easily one of my favorites moments in ROH this year, the way the crowd reacts to Hero saying "I don't have an ace up my sleeve...I've got a king of diamonds!" and the HUGE heat Eddie gets in the ring. I was just dissappointed he didn't get to do more in the match. Kingston is easily the most under-rated wrestler out there in the US.

[alexander]

Yeah, the Eddie stuff was brilliant. More stuff I loved from that match

[stone]

found this on the CZWFANS message board the top 100 matches of all time1. Samoa Joe vs. Kenta Kobashi- Joe vs. Kobashi 2. Samoa Joe vs. CM Punk- Joe vs. Punk II 3. Blood Generation vs. Do Fixer- Supercard of Honor 4. Low-Ki vs. KENTA- Final Battle 2005 5. Samoa Joe vs. CM Punk- All-Star Extravaganza II 6. Bryan Danielson vs. Roderick Strong- Vendetta 7. Bryan Danielson vs. Roderick Strong- Supercard of Honor 8. Samoa Joe vs. Bryan Danielson- Midnight Express Reunion 9. AJ Styles vs. Paul London- Night of the Grudges 10. Team ROH (Samoa Joe, BJ Whitmer, & Adam Pearce) vs. Team CZW (Chris Hero, Necro Butcher, & Super Dragon)- The 100th Show 11. Low-Ki vs. American Dragon vs. "Fallen Angel" Christopher Daniels- Era of Honor Begins 12. Paul London vs. Bryan Danielson- Epic Encounter 13. CM Punk vs. Austin Aries- Death Before Dishonor III 14. Austin Aries vs. Bryan Danielson- Testing The Limit 15. Bryan Danielson vs. James Gibson- Glory By Honor IV 16. American Dragon vs. Low-Ki- Round Robin Challenge 17. Generation Next vs. The Embassy- Steel Cage Warfare 18. Austin Aries vs. Samoa Joe- Final Battle 2004 19. Homicide vs. Steve Corino- Bitter Friends, Stiffer Enemies 20. Samoa Joe vs. Jay Briscoes- At Our Best 21. Samoa Joe vs. CM Punk- World Title Classic 22. Paul London vs. Michael Shane- Unscripted 23. Generation Next vs. John Walters, Jimmy Rave, & The Briscoes- Generation Next 24. Bryan Danielson vs. Austin Aries vs. Mark Briscoe vs. Homicide vs. Colt Cabana vs. Samoa Joe- Survival Of The Fittest 2004 25. CM Punk & Ace Steel vs. Dan Maff & BJ Whitmer- Death Before Dishonor II: Night 2 26. Low-Ki vs. Samoa Joe- Glory By Honor 27. Roderick Strong vs. James Gibson- Unforgettable 28. Blood Generation vs. Generation Next- Dragon Gate Challenge 29. CM Punk vs. Jimmy Rave- Nowhere To Run 30. Low-Ki vs. "Fallen Angel" Christopher Daniels vs. Doug Williams vs. Spanky- Crowning A Champion 31. Bryan Danielson vs. Roderick Strong- This Means War 32. Roderick Strong & Jack Evans vs. Jay & Mark Briscoe- Best In The World 33. Paul London vs. AJ Styles vs. Low-Ki- One-Year Anniversary Show 34. Austin Aries vs. Alex Shelley- Manhattan Mayhem 35. Steve Corino vs. Homicide- War Of The Wire 36. Samoa Joe & Jay Lethal vs. Low-Ki & Homicide- Punk: The Final Chapter 37. CM Punk & Colt Cabana vs. Jay & Mark Briscoe- Death Before Dishonor II: Night 1 38. Homicide vs. Bryan Danielson- Reborn: Stage 2 39. Bryan Danielson vs. Jimmy Rave- 4th Anniversary Show 40. Bryan Danielson vs. Spanky- Best of the American Super-Juniours Tournament 41. Samoa Joe & Jushin "Thunder" Lyger vs. Bryan Danielson & Low-Ki- Weekend of Thunder: Night 2 42. Kenta Kobashi & Homicide vs. Samoa Joe & Low-Ki- Unforgettable 43. Bryan Danielson vs. Alex Shelley- Arena Warfare 44. Colt Cabana vs. Homicide- Better Than Our Best 45. AJ Styles vs. American Dragon- All-Star Extravaganza 46. CM Punk vs. James Gibson vs. Samoa Joe vs. Christopher Daniels- Redemption 47. Austin Aries & Roderick Strong vs. AJ Styles & Matt Sydal- 4th Anniversary Show 48. Jack Evans vs. Samoa Joe vs. Delirious vs. Ebetaroh- The Final Showdown 49. Low-Ki vs. The Amazing Red- Road To The Title 50. Austin Aries vs. James Gibson- The Final Showdown 51. BJ Whitmer vs. Homicide vs. Colt Cabana vs. Dan Maff- Death Before Dishonor 52. Scramble Cage I- Main Event Spectacles 53. Samoa Joe vs. Jay Lethal- Manhattan Mayhem 54. Bryan Danielson vs. Lance Storm- Better Than Our Best 55. AJ Stlyes vs. Matt Sydal- Hell Freezes Over 56. Paul London vs. Bryan Danielson- Night of the Butcher 57. KENTA & Naomichi Marufuji vs. Bryan Danielson & Samoa Joe- Best In The World 58. AJ Styles & Matt Sydal vs. Austin Aries & Jack Evans- Supercard of Honor 59. Jay Briscoe vs. Mark Briscoe- Honor Invades Boston 60. BJ Whitmer vs. Jimmy Jacobs- Dragon Gate Challenge 61. Samoa Joe vs. Homicide- Death Before Dishonor II: Night 1 62. Homicide vs. BJ Whitmer- Main Event Spectacles 63. CM Punk vs. Alex Shelley- 3rd Anniversary Celebration: Night 2 64. BJ Whitmer & Jimmy Jacobs vs. Roderick Strong & Jack Evans- Manhattan Mayhem 65. Jushin "Thunder" Lyger vs. Bryan Danielson- Weekend of Thunder: Night 1 66. Alex Shelley vs. Jimmy Jacobs- Joe vs. Punk II 67. Doug Williams vs. Christopher Daniels- Night of Champions 68. AJ Styles & The Amazing Red vs. Jay & Mark Briscoe- Night of Champions 69. CM Punk vs. James Gibson- Fate of An Angel 70. John Walter vs. Xavier- Final Battle 2003 71. Jimmy Rave vs. CM Punk- Manhattan Mayhem 72. AJ Styles vs. Roderick Strong- Fate of An Angel 73. Jay & Mark Briscoe vs. AJ Styles & Matt Sydal- The 100th Show 74. Austin Aries & Roderick Strong vs. CIMA & Naruki Doi- Better Than Our Best 75. AJ Styles vs. Bryan Danielson- Main Event Spectacles 76. CM Punk & Colt Cabana vs. Jay & Mark Briscoe- Reborn: Stage 2 77. CM Punk vs. Roderick Strong- Escape From New York 78. The Prophecy vs. The Second City Saints- Battle Lines Are Drawn 79. AJ Styles vs. Low-Ki- Night of Appreciation 80. AJ Styles vs. Bryan Danielson- Dissension 81. Nigel McGuinness vs. Austin Aries- Unscripted II 82. CM Punk vs. Raven- Death Before Dishonor 83. Samoa Joe vs. Homicide- Do or Die 84. CM Punk vs. Roderick Strong- The Future Is Now 85. Bryan Danielson vs. Chris Hero- Hell Freezes Over 86. Austin Aries & Roderick Strong vs. Bryan Danielson & Jay Lethal- Tag Wars 2006 87. Samoa Joe vs. Austin Aries- Escape From New York 88. CM Punk vs. AJ Styles- At Our Best 89. Bryan Danielson vs. Naomichi Marufuji- Final Battle 2005 90. Jimmy Rave, Alex Shelley, & Masato Yoshino vs. Do Fixer- Better Than Our Best 91. Austin Aries vs. Bryan Danielson- Nowhere To Run 92. Alex Shelley vs. Claudio Castagnoli- This Means War 93. The Rottweilers vs. Samoa Joe & The Briscoes- Reborn: Completion 94. James Gibson vs. Spanky- 3rd Anniversary Celebration: Night 2 95. Low-Ki vs. Austin Aries- The Future Is Now 96. Samoa Joe vs. Christopher Daniels- Vendetta 97. CM Punk & Colt Cabana vs. Jay & Mark Briscoe- Round Robin Challenge III 98. Samoa Joe vs. Low-Ki vs. Dan Maff vs. BJ Whitmer- 2nd Anniversary Show 99. Homicide vs. Doug Williams- Nowhere To Run 100. Roderick Strong & Jack Evans vs. Homicide & Rocky Romero- Joe vs. Punk II

[RCD]

Seen 87 of those matches :-DWatched up to Nigel/Marifuji on GBH5 earlier. Awesome show so far.

[gadge]

That last list was actually the top 100 from the first 100 shows, as sorted out on the ROH board. So, nothing since April 22nd is on there. I've seen them all. Next match on my to view list is the titular 'Fight of the Century'.