Should UFC Fighters Get Paid More?

[Egg Shen]

$10k for headlining a PPV with 200,000 buys? That low tier Reebok money, harsh.

 

[David]

56 minutes ago, Egg Shen said:

$10k for headlining a PPV with 200,000 buys? That low tier Reebok money, harsh.

If a PPV comes in at that number we see fans bash it as having done terrible, so yeah, if you can only attract 200,000 buys you probably don't deserve a PPV bonus.

Bear in mind though, it's a fucking bonus. They're still getting their champion-level money if they're a belt holder, aren't they? It's not as if they're going home with $50,000 and a Curly Wurly in their pocket.

[Egg Shen]

Yeah, but isn't the argument that the Champions level base pay isn't anywhere enough? the PPV bonus is what drives these fighters to make good money. 

in your case above of the $13 million earned of PPV money you believe the Champion anchoring the event is only worth an extra $10k? 0.7%. You drive a hard bargain David.

[David]

19 minutes ago, Egg Shen said:

Yeah, but isn't the argument that the Champions level base pay isn't anywhere enough?

Depends what we consider to be enough? Is Amanda Nunes, a champion who really doesn't draw all that well and isn't someone who offers much by way of marketability, making almost half a million dollars per fight not enough?

I'd say it is. 

Most champions are taking home around half a million dollars per title defence. That sounds about right to me for a sport like the UFC. 

EDIT: Also, a PPV event bringing in 200,000 buys isn't generating the UFC $13 million. They get around half the purchase price of each show under the traditional PPV model, so $6.5 million. And the champion is entitled to none of that $6.5 million. They only earn money when the PPV brings in over 200,000 buys.

Edited June 18, 2020 by David

[Egg Shen]

yeh, so if they earn $1 per sale, they are taking home $200,000 of the $6.5 million, that sounds about fair to me.

[David]

It works something like this: Fighters get $1 for every PPV sold between 200,000 and 400,000. They get $2 for every PPV sold between 400,000 and 600,000. And they get $2.50 for every PPV sold over 600,000.

So up to 200,000 buys, the fighter gets nothing. It only kick in after that number.

[Egg Shen]

yeh we've already established that 🙄

[David]

4 minutes ago, Egg Shen said:

yeh we've already established that 🙄

Oh, okay. I just assumed that when you mentioned that the fighter would be taking home $200,000 from 200,000 PPV buys that you didn't realise points kick in after 200,000.

What it does mean is that even a bad PPV, which is what? 375,000 - 390,000 buys? That would still see a champion on points get a decent bonus.

[Egg Shen]

yeh for 375,000 they are looking around 375k back to them, what do you think they deserve at that point?

[David]

5 minutes ago, Egg Shen said:

yeh for 375,000 they are looking around 375k back to them, what do you think they deserve at that point?

No, for 375,000 PPV buys a headliner with PPV points in their deal will see about $175,000 under the old system.

[Egg Shen]

ahhh got you. 

[David]

So, it looks like this pay chat between Francis and the UFC isn't going away any time soon.

Quote

UFC heavyweight champion Francis Ngannou is willing to sit out the rest of 2022 if he beats Ciryl Gane and can’t come to terms with his promoter on a new contract that will bump his pay and allow him to box.

Ngannou on Thursday told ESPN.com he believes he has fulfilled his current contract with the UFC when he faces interim champ Ciryl Gane in a title unifier at UFC 270 on Jan. 22. But he also acknowledges a champion’s clause could delay his next move, whatever that might be.

The only thing he’s certain of is that things have to change.

“No, I will not fight for $500,000, $600,000 any more,” said Ngannou when asked if he would fight under the terms of an extended contract with the UFC. “I mean, it’s over. It’s over. I just did this. I took this fight for a personal reason, and I want to make sure that regardless, even if it’s unfair, I have been wrongly treated, I can make my case to say I have completed the eight fights. But no.”

Ngannou said he signed a deal with the UFC in December 2017 – prior to his first heavyweight title shot in a fight against Stipe Miocic at UFC 220 – that had a five-year term. However, he said the champion’s clause in his contract also states that should he hold the title at its expiration, he would be bound to the promotion for one year or three fights.

“That all makes me think it’s optional,” Ngannou said.

Ngannou seemed unclear on his status given the contract’s overall term and the champion’s clause, at one point saying he wouldn’t be under contract until January 2023 “because the global of the UFC contract from the beginning to the end, it cannot pass five years.”

“The UFC contract is very tricky,” he said. “That’s why you sign [a 40-month] contract and you find yourself after four years still dealing with that, even though you have been active.”

The UFC’s standard contracts typically include a “tolling” provision that also allow the promotion to extend them for six months in the event a fighter is not able to accept an offered fight due to injury or other circumstances. Earlier this year, Ngannou turned down a title fight with Derrick Lewis at UFC 265 due to scheduling conflicts. The UFC subsequently promoted an interim title fight between Gane, his former training partner, and Lewis.

Ngannou’s manager Marquel Martin, whose CAA agency is a direct competitor to UFC parent Endeavor, told ESPN that negotiations have not resumed on a new deal. Martin recently said he hadn’t spoken to the promotion in six months despite a desire to strike a new deal.

UFC President Dana White downplayed the conflict and said it was up to Ngannou whether or not to stay on.

“If you want to be with us, we’d love to have you,” he said. “If you don’t want to be with us, no problem. All good.”

Ngannou wasn’t overly encouraged by those words. He said any new deal he strikes must include an option to box. He and heavyweight boxing champ Tyson Fury recently talked up a possible fight, and Fury’s promoter Top Rank welcomed the idea of a crossover event.

“We’ve been having this discussion for over one year, and it seems like they were OK with it,” Ngannou said of the UFC’s stance on boxing. “When the UFC is involved, it’s just going to make it bigger. So yes, if I want to box, I would like the UFC to be involved.”

But, he added, he didn’t know what to think about the promotion’s current interest level.

“Sometimes, I might say yes, sometimes, I don’t know,” he said.

One outcome at UFC 270 would certainly bring clarity to Ngannou’s status: a loss to Gane. At that point, he would be subject to an exclusive negotiating period with the UFC, typically 90 days, followed by a period where other promoters could make offers with the UFC given the option to match them.

Whatever happens, Ngannou refuted the idea that he’s taking a gamble on his career and said a loss won’t define his legacy.

“Let’s make something very clear,” he said. “The reason why I’m here is because I earned it. Nobody has given me anything. So I don’t know what’s going to happen tomorrow, but I’m sure I will make it. I will keep making it. I’m want to win this fight, but if I lost, it’s fine. I don’t think that takes anything out of me as a man. I have done a lot as a man.

“Even if this was the end, well, I’ll say I did it. Not many people in their lifetime, even those who have better opportunities than I, can tell the same story as me. I’m happy where I am.”

Some very interesting points made in that interview, some of which I've detailed below:

The champions extension. Many (including me) were seemingly under the impression that as champion he would be under contract in perpetuity, pretty much. We saw something similar with Randy Couture when he tried to facilitate a bout with Fedor outside the UFC, and ended up calling it a day. If Ngannou can win this fight with Gane, he could effectively sit out for a year and then walk into either a boxing match or another MMA promotion as the "lineal" UFC heavyweight champion.

That's huge, especially if a boxing match with Fury is a real possibility. Imagine being able to sell that as the heavyweight boxing champion of the world facing off with the heavyweight MMA champion of the world? Huge.

Ngannou's management. There was always going to be a reason why Dana kept urging Francis to find new representation. And now we know, it's because the agency that Ngannou's manager owns is in direct competition with the parent company of the UFC. That explains a whole lot.

Remember the old days when Ngannou was the guy that Dana loved to champion? Like others before him, he's made the error of getting above his station it would seem.

Personally, as much of a loss as Ngannou would be to the UFC and MMA, I hope he wrecks Gane, sits out the year and walks into a mega-fight with Fury, earning tens of millions of dollars and showing other UFC fighters that there's more options out there than the restrictive contracts the UFC offers.

Don't get me wrong, those contracts suit many fighters, maybe even most of the roster, but if you're a top guy wanting a little more freedom and higher earning power? I'm not sure the UFC is the place to be.

Edited January 14, 2022 by David

[Dai]

When the UFC did Gane/Lewis, that was a big 'actions speak louder than words' moment, which basically said loud and clear that the UFC doesnt need Francis. A PPV main event with a couple of guys on a few hundred grand, and it probably didnt do that much worse than what it would have done with Francis, which makes his demands of wanting millions per fight severley weakened.

The whole boxing thing pie in the sky stuff from him, Im afraid, and something he surely knows the UFC will never accept, unless theres a big cut of the cash going directly to them. "When the UFC is involved, it’s just going to make it bigger". Not sure whether he means it will make the UFC 'bigger'/more popular, or just the actual boxing match. Either way, its a load of shit, and from the UFC perspective (unless they get an insane amount of cash from the fight), why would they allow him to waste time doing that when he could be making the UFC even more cash by fighting in MMA.

[d-d-d-dAz]

I haven't read the thread all the way through, but my two cents:

Boxing pay is used as an example of how fighters could get paid but, whilst it's true that you can play promoters off against each other to up your purse, it's actually a bit of a red herring.

Let's look at the A-Sides:

Boxing is astonishingly top heavy first and foremost, the money earned by the names at the top is primarily coming out of the guys lower down the cards' pocket. There are TV fighters earning a grand a round. There are fighters on ticket deals. Fighters earned 500quid a round. And that is just the A-sides. The home fighters.

The B-Sides:

This is where the real financial squeeze comes in. If it's a main event level talent, or someone managed by a powerhouse like MTK, and they have options - sure, they'll be able to negotiate a decent rate. But, for most B-Sides, it's a case of desperately flogging their wares for astonishingly low purses.

PPV money or TV license fees don't cover main star boxing purses wholesale. The cost of running an event, the venue, the travel, the promotion, paying the undercard - that's really expensive stuff all-in. The bigger the PPV sure, you'll make enough...but by and large boxing is run on a robbing-Peter-to-pay-Paul model and it's the filler fighters that take an absolute kicking.

From the UFC's perspective, they tend to guarantee a certain level of parity across the shows even if the average rate is lower. If they suddenly improved base rates of pay, they'd be improving base rates for so many fighters (with little added value to the company) that it'd quickly become untenable.

I'm not saying they don't deserve more money for risking their lives. On a basic fairness level, sure they do. But I understand from a financial perspective why they model it like they do. Especially considering the added layer that 9 times out of 10 the UFC brand is the sell.

 

Edited January 14, 2022 by d-d-d-dAz

[David]

1 hour ago, Dai said:

When the UFC did Gane/Lewis, that was a big 'actions speak louder than words' moment, which basically said loud and clear that the UFC doesnt need Francis. A PPV main event with a couple of guys on a few hundred grand, and it probably didnt do that much worse than what it would have done with Francis, which makes his demands of wanting millions per fight severley weakened.

Going by that thinking it would appear that the UFC don't "need" any of their fighters outside of perhaps McGregor then, as he's the only one who really draws monster numbers?

It's also worth considering the sheer lack of actual promotion that the UFC really does. In fact, it's one of the few sports leagues where the President routinely runs down his biggest assets in public, which is absolute madness. 

Ngannou could, and should, be a huge star. His backstory is the stuff of dreams, he flatlines most of the guys he fights, his highlight reel is ridiculous, and he looks like he's emerged from the pages of a fucking comic book. 

I honestly don't know what else the UFC could ask for in a heavyweight champion. He really does have it all. And for extra measure he has an entire continent behind him whenever he fights. The UFC is easily the worst promoter of talent around today in sports.

1 hour ago, Dai said:

The whole boxing thing pie in the sky stuff from him, Im afraid, and something he surely knows the UFC will never accept, unless theres a big cut of the cash going directly to them. "When the UFC is involved, it’s just going to make it bigger". Not sure whether he means it will make the UFC 'bigger'/more popular, or just the actual boxing match. Either way, its a load of shit, and from the UFC perspective (unless they get an insane amount of cash from the fight), why would they allow him to waste time doing that when he could be making the UFC even more cash by fighting in MMA.

Pie in the sky? You don't think that there would be genuine top level interest from the boxing world if the legit heavyweight champion of the UFC, and by default the entire MMA world, becomes a free agent having never lost his title in the cage?

I think it's clear that he's mentioning boxing as a way to make it known to outside parties that he's very much interested in crossing over. He's being diplomatic with the UFC being part of the equation. He knows they won't entertain it.

1 hour ago, d-d-d-dAz said:

I haven't read the thread all the way through, but my two cents:

Boxing pay is used as an example of how fighters could get paid but, whilst it's true that you can play promoters off against each other to up your purse, it's actually a bit of a red herring.

Let's look at the A-Sides:

Boxing is astonishingly top heavy first and foremost, the money earned by the names at the top is primarily coming out of the guys lower down the cards' pocket. There are TV fighters earning a grand a round. There are fighters on ticket deals. Fighters earned 500quid a round. And that is just the A-sides. The home fighters.

The B-Sides:

This is where the real financial squeeze comes in. If it's a main event level talent, or someone managed by a powerhouse like MTK, and they have options - sure, they'll be able to negotiate a decent rate. But, for most B-Sides, it's a case of desperately flogging their wares for astonishingly low purses.

PPV money or TV license fees don't cover main star boxing purses wholesale. The cost of running an event, the venue, the travel, the promotion, paying the undercard - that's really expensive stuff all-in. The bigger the PPV sure, you'll make enough...but by and large boxing is run on a robbing-Peter-to-pay-Paul model and it's the filler fighters that take an absolute kicking.

From the UFC's perspective, they tend to guarantee a certain level of parity across the shows even if the average rate is lower. If they suddenly improved base rates of pay, they'd be improving base rates for so many fighters (with little added value to the company) that it'd quickly become untenable.

I'm not saying they don't deserve more money for risking their lives. On a basic fairness level, sure they do. But I understand from a financial perspective why they model it like they do. Especially considering the added layer that 9 times out of 10 the UFC brand is the sell.

It's worth bearing in mind that boxing isn't used as an example of how fighters could get paid, but top fighters. There's a difference. No one is thinking that Jeremy Stephens or Clay Guida would make millions in boxing. We're talking about the very elite of the sport. The guys who have hit a ceiling when it comes to pay, but who have so much more to offer than what the UFC is willing to acknowledge or pay for.

Someone like Francis Ngannou would be a perfect fit for boxing, and he comes with a reputation as the scariest man in MMA and the current UFC heavyweight champion. He'd most definitely be an A-side attraction, and as such would be looking at a much bigger payday than anything the UFC are willing to offer.

You're right on the UFC though, they basically do what they do because they can. Mid-card fighters and down the way tend to make what I think they're worth. It's the top level talent who are hitting that financial ceiling, while at the same time seeing the UFC pull in profits of mindboggling proportions.

Endeavour commented in November last year that "the UFC had delivered the best nine-month, year-to-date period in the mixed martial arts (MMA) promotion’s history." That's not bad considering the state of play in the world just now.

I know much of that is down to the UFC brand, but surely we have to give a little credit to the guys pulling on the gloves as well?