UFC 229: Khabib vs McGregor

[Carbomb]

2 hours ago, Silky Kisser said:

I mean they could run the whole, grew up poor, hard life angle at any point. They just choose not to do it, or maybe she doesn't wanna do it. 

Point taken about interpreters, it's a big thing for someone like Yoel, but she doesn't use them. Instead she bumbles her way though (props for trying) but it leaves me totally disconnected. She also comes off as not the sharpest knife in the drawer which doesn't help. I've never seen her try to promote herself in anyway either. Apart from calling out Cyborg and then back pedaling. 

Maybe it's just me. Great fighter, but I think you need more than that to become a star these days. If the crowd didn't take after she blitzed Ronda, I don't think much promotion before then was gonna tip her popularity over the edge. 

 

The bit about her not being the sharpest knife in the draw - I'm not sure if that's a problem; haven't there been a fair few fighters that people thought were thick as pigshit, but no-one really cared? If she doesn't use interpreters, though, that's not a smart move.

As to the bit in bold: again, I don't know. I just feel like a crowd have to be prepped. I appreciate I'm talking with my wrestling head on, but generally speaking, if you don't build up someone first, the crowd wouldn't just not get on board when said wrestler goes over, they might even take against him/her. Same with Nunes - if the UFC aren't telling the crowd "this is someone you can get behind", if they're not getting behind their own fighter, who else is going to?

I'm not saying it's all down to them. Nunes could probably be doing a bit more to help her situation. But her profile is so low at the moment, I can't think anything but that the UFC have dropped the ball big time on this one. People normally get the rub from beating a big name, so I have to ask "what's different about this from all other precedents?" And even without thinking about that, there's still the fact that the UFC did practically nothing to promote Nunes. I can't think of a single time (maybe others can) when the champion got no promotion when her challenger did, regardless of how big the name was. 

[Egg Shen]

Well they've just set up Cyborg vs. Nunes, thats the biggest fight that can be made in female MMA at the moment so she'll get has to get some kind promotional push going in.

 

[Carbomb]

9 minutes ago, Egg Shen said:

Well they've just set up Cyborg vs. Nunes, thats the biggest fight that can be made in female MMA at the moment so she'll get has to get some kind promotional push going in.

 

Yeah, but that ties into what I was saying before: that the most promotion she'll ever have as champion is basically to get loads of viewers to watch her get butchered by Cyborg. It's sad.

[David]

13 hours ago, Carbomb said:

Yeah, but that ties into what I was saying before: that the most promotion she'll ever have as champion is basically to get loads of viewers to watch her get butchered by Cyborg. It's sad.

Maybe it's because, much like female wrestling for the most part, it's the drizzling shits? Outwith the hardcore fanboys no one really cares with the exception of a few select stars? 

The UFC could push Nunes to the moon and I wouldn't give a flying fuck. I have no interest in seeing any female bout that doesn't feature Cyborg throwing punches and kicks like a prime Wanderlei Silva with long hair.

[Carbomb]

21 minutes ago, David said:

Maybe it's because, much like female wrestling for the most part, it's the drizzling shits? Outwith the hardcore fanboys no one really cares with the exception of a few select stars? 

The UFC could push Nunes to the moon and I wouldn't give a flying fuck. I have no interest in seeing any female bout that doesn't feature Cyborg throwing punches and kicks like a prime Wanderlei Silva with long hair.

I haven't watched wrestling for a while, but I've been told by a lot of wrestling fan friends that female wrestling is actually quite good now, which some of the recent female main-event matches on a par with the best men's mains too. It's benefited from a lot of investment of time, resources, and effort on the part of WWE.

As to female MMA, I'm hardly a hardcore fanboy, but I'm interested in it. Maybe my appreciation isn't quite as refined as that of most others, but I find enjoyment in it (and no - I'm not talking about just the attractive ones).

Either way, so what if female MMA is "the drizzling shits"? The female UFC fighters are still meant to be the best exponents in the world of their sport. And just because they're the drizzling shits now (and I don't know how true that is), how is the division to ever get better without promotion? The more exposure and money female fighters get, the more women will be encouraged to get into MMA as a career, the larger the talent pool will get, the greater the selection of talented fighters will be, and consequently the more likely it is that the absolute best fighters will get into the UFC that are of a level that even you will find enjoyable, no?

@wandshogun09 can clarify for me, as I've not watched any, but I was under the impression that women's boxing and women's kickboxing is at quite a high level nowadays, so if I've got that right, it's a demonstration of how it's not set in stone that women's combat sports will always be a certain level. Like every other sport there's ever been, it will only get better if serious endeavour is made to invest in it.

I understand your point about the skill level - if I'm honest, I don't enjoy that many HW men's matches all that much, as, outside of the title fights and contendership matches, there isn't that much in the way of high-level skill on display in comparison to what's shown in the lower weight divisions.

[David]

35 minutes ago, Carbomb said:

Either way, so what if female MMA is "the drizzling shits"? The female UFC fighters are still meant to be the best exponents in the world of their sport. And just because they're the drizzling shits now (and I don't know how true that is), how is the division to ever get better without promotion? The more exposure and money female fighters get, the more women will be encouraged to get into MMA as a career, the larger the talent pool will get, the greater the selection of talented fighters will be, and consequently the more likely it is that the absolute best fighters will get into the UFC that are of a level that even you will find enjoyable, no?

I don't think any of that really matters to be honest, because what it eventually boils down to is your audience. 

Have you been to a UFC or cage fighting event? If so, you'll know that audience is primarily male goons from the ages of 18-40 or so. Have a look at comments on MMA sites posts on Facebook, or on websites. That's the audience.

They want to, for the most part, see guys who look like they could smash the fuck out of ten guys in a pub and not break sweat. They want to see mouthy twats who cross the line when it comes to homophobic and racist chat, they want to see fighters who flash their cash and drive cars more expensive than most people's houses. 

They're the type of guys who elbow their mate and wink when a hot female walks past, and who talk about "smashing it" on the weekend.

You think they give a fuck about how skilled Amanda Nunes is? Or even the majority of the flyweight male fighters? You have one of the most skilled guys on the planet and in the history of the sport in that division and most fans don't care. They honestly couldn't give a toss.

To the majority of the MMA fanbase Nunes is just another butch looking female fighter. Look at the successful female stars for the most part. A really hot brunette who went into movies, a hot blonde who went into movies, and a Brazilian female who looks like a dude and who ragdolls her opponents.

Two hot chicks and a freakshow.

[Carbomb]

1 minute ago, David said:

I don't think any of that really matters to be honest, because what it eventually boils down to is your audience. 

Have you been to a UFC or cage fighting event? If so, you'll know that audience is primarily male goons from the ages of 18-40 or so. Have a look at comments on MMA sites posts on Facebook, or on websites. That's the audience.

They want to, for the most part, see guys who look like they could smash the fuck out of ten guys in a pub and not break sweat. They want to see mouthy twats who cross the line when it comes to homophobic and racist chat, they want to see fighters who flash their cash and drive cars more expensive than most people's houses. 

They're the type of guys who elbow their mate and wink when a hot female walks past, and who talk about "smashing it" on the weekend.

You think they give a fuck about how skilled Amanda Nunes is? Or even the majority of the flyweight male fighters? You have one of the most skilled guys on the planet and in the history of the sport in that division and most fans don't care. They honestly couldn't give a toss.

To the majority of the MMA fanbase Nunes is just another butch looking female fighter. Look at the successful female stars for the most part. A really hot brunette who went into movies, a hot blonde who went into movies, and a Brazilian female who looks like a dude and who ragdolls her opponents.

Two hot chicks and a freakshow.

Again, though: you're using the way things are to justify the way they should stay. And you're only talking about the live audience. Plus, to be perfectly honest, I don't give a fuck about what they don't give a fuck about. If they're really the kind of bloke you're talking about, on a personal level I'm happy to see them frustrated and bored at every opportunity. 

I'm saying the UFC should build towards making serious women fighters a draw - it doesn't cost them anything to do so, and potentially they get to tap into a much bigger market by appealing to women as well as men. It wouldn't be the first time the UFC would've had to evolve to change its market image and appeal to a wider demographic, after all. 

 

[David]

2 minutes ago, Carbomb said:

Again, though: you're using the way things are to justify the way they should stay. And you're only talking about the live audience. Plus, to be perfectly honest, I don't give a fuck about what they don't give a fuck about. If they're really the kind of bloke you're talking about, on a personal level I'm happy to see them frustrated and bored at every opportunity. 

Yeah, but it's not your company, mate. Why would the UFC address your concerns when you're most likely in the minority?

It's like people banging on about the company not promoting Nunes in her fight with Rousey. No shit they didn't promote her! Who cares about Nunes? It's the hot blonde chick who's appeared on magazine covers and in movies who matters, not some muscled-up female from Brazil who wears guys clothes.

Those blokes you want to see frustrated are the ones who buy the tickets, who buy the overpriced beer in the arenas, who buy the t-shirts (a few sizes too small most times, but still) and who actually spend money.

The likes of you and me who chat about the sport on a wrestling forum and who hum and haw about paying seven quid a month for a streaming service isn't the UFC's main concern.

6 minutes ago, Carbomb said:

I'm saying the UFC should build towards making serious women fighters a draw - it doesn't cost them anything to do so, and potentially they get to tap into a much bigger market by appealing to women as well as men. It wouldn't be the first time the UFC would've had to evolve to change its market image and appeal to a wider demographic, after all. 

The UFC will promote female fighting when a female comes along who's either weird enough like Cyborg, or who's hot enough to grab their audiences attention and can put on a show in the cage.

Another thing you have to remember is that this is cage fighting we're talking about. Two people in a metal cage trying to break each others faces open.

Realistically, how many women are you going to attract to that? My other half sees me watching it and recoils in disgust when someone get's punched, and rightfully so really when you think about it. It's fucking horrible in reality.

The UFC could litter the whole show with women and it's not going to alter their demographic too much, for the simple fact that it's fighting. The majority of the human population don't like to see people hurting each other. 

[Egg Shen]

1 hour ago, Carbomb said:

I haven't watched wrestling for a while, but I've been told by a lot of wrestling fan friends that female wrestling is actually quite good now

Its not, its fucking terrible.

[Carbomb]

1 minute ago, David said:

Yeah, but it's not your company, mate. Why would the UFC address your concerns when you're most likely in the minority?

It's like people banging on about the company not promoting Nunes in her fight with Rousey. No shit they didn't promote her! Who cares about Nunes? It's the hot blonde chick who's appeared on magazine covers and in movies who matters, not some muscled-up female from Brazil who wears guys clothes.

Those blokes you want to see frustrated are the ones who buy the tickets, who buy the overpriced beer in the arenas, who buy the t-shirts (a few sizes too small most times, but still) and who actually spend money.

The likes of you and me who chat about the sport on a wrestling forum and who hum and haw about paying seven quid a month for a streaming service isn't the UFC's main concern.

The UFC will promote female fighting when a female comes along who's either weird enough like Cyborg, or who's hot enough to grab their audiences attention and can put on a show in the cage.

Another thing you have to remember is that this is cage fighting we're talking about. Two people in a metal cage trying to break each others faces open.

Realistically, how many women are you going to attract to that? My other half sees me watching it and recoils in disgust when someone get's punched, and rightfully so really when you think about it. It's fucking horrible in reality.

The UFC could litter the whole show with women and it's not going to alter their demographic too much, for the simple fact that it's fighting. The majority of the human population don't like to see people hurting each other. 

That first bit about not promoting Nunes - I don't agree with that at all. They're a company that wants to make money, and presumably wants to make money in future. They're a business, right? Even if you don't think someone's going to be a megastar draw, you promote them because you're trying to squeeze every dollar you can get out of every possible fight. You're the one who usually asserts about how it's unfair that champions get ignored and passed over disproportionately for the big draws (and you're right); well, Nunes is their champion and she got fuck-all. Not even what a contender gets. It's all very well talking about how Rousey and Cyborg are the only draws, but you know as well as anyone else that it's stupid to rely so much on the big stars - you need "bread-and-butter" income, and that's the regular fights. For better or worse, that includes "regular" women's matches - otherwise, what's the point of having them? How much does it really cost them to just try and make a fucking effort to promote a champion? If it fails, fine - point proven. But to not even try is asinine.

Even if you're not looking at it in terms of straight dollars earned from her matches, what sort of message does it send to the potential crowd that could buy? It tells people that such-and-such a champion is not worth watching at all, and so they shouldn't bother any time that fight is announced. So they've lost any potential earnings (such as they might be) because they couldn't be arsed.

And again: you're using the way things are to justify the way they should stay. By that logic, the UFC should never have tried to evolve past their "human cockfighting" image, because the majority of their audiences at the time wanted to see a bunch of blokes of different weights tearing lumps out of each other in no-holds-barred matches. And it's not like the punters you describe would be put off if the women's divisions were promoted - they'd still get plenty of men's matches they can watch and pretend they're just as hard, and there are still ring-girls for them to fap over. 

Also, I think you're overstating just how few women would watch, and neither of us is really in a position to make a definite statement as to how much the demographic would change, because no-one knows - it would be unprecedented. I agree that combat sports are horrible when you really think about them, but I don't think there's anything inherently "softer" or more timid about women - maybe the proportion isn't as high, but there are plenty of women who enjoy watching MMA. I know quite a few myself. Even my sister, who's a dancer and was never really interested in sports outside a bit of athletics and tennis, got into WMMA because of Rousey, and has stuck with it since.

[David]

3 minutes ago, Carbomb said:

That first bit about not promoting Nunes - I don't agree with that at all. They're a company that wants to make money, and presumably wants to make money in future. They're a business, right? Even if you don't think someone's going to be a megastar draw, you promote them because you're trying to squeeze every dollar you can get out of every possible fight. You're the one who usually asserts about how it's unfair that champions get ignored and passed over disproportionately for the big draws (and you're right); well, Nunes is their champion and she got fuck-all. Not even what a contender gets. It's all very well talking about how Rousey and Cyborg are the only draws, but you know as well as anyone else that it's stupid to rely so much on the big stars - you need "bread-and-butter" income, and that's the regular fights. For better or worse, that includes "regular" women's matches - otherwise, what's the point of having them? How much does it really cost them to just try and make a fucking effort to promote a champion? If it fails, fine - point proven. But to not even try is asinine.

Look, we both know how the company works. They put their weight behind people who they believe have something that will connect them with the fans, and for those who don't have that something? Well, tough shit really.

 

5 minutes ago, Carbomb said:

And again: you're using the way things are to justify the way they should stay. By that logic, the UFC should never have tried to evolve past their "human cockfighting" image, because the majority of their audiences at the time wanted to see a bunch of blokes of different weights tearing lumps out of each other in no-holds-barred matches.

You're talking as if the sport really evolved all that much. It didn't.

They stuck some gloves on the fighters, introduced rounds and divided into weight classes. Hardly groundbreaking stuff, is it? The audience, for the most part, still want to see a bunch of blokes tearing lumps out of each other and breaking each others heads open.

6 minutes ago, Carbomb said:

Also, I think you're overstating just how few women would watch, and neither of us is really in a position to make a definite statement as to how much the demographic would change, because no-one knows - it would be unprecedented. I agree that combat sports are horrible when you really think about them, but I don't think there's anything inherently "softer" or more timid about women - maybe the proportion isn't as high, but there are plenty of women who enjoy watching MMA. I know quite a few myself. Even my sister, who's a dancer and was never really interested in sports outside a bit of athletics and tennis, got into WMMA because of Rousey, and has stuck with it since.

It's got fuck all to do with being softer or timid, and is more to do with being, for the most part, smarter than men. 

Look throughout history. Guys love nothing better than killing and hurting each other, it's what guys do. How many serial killers are women? What's the percentage of violent criminals in prisons who are female?

Now, will a few women watch the sport? Of course they will, but is it enough to talk about changing demographics and altering the way the product is marketed and the audience is treated? Not in my opinion, no. 

Look, this is what it is, to coin Uncle Dana. It's guys smashing fuck out of each other in a steel cage while a bunch of mostly drunk buffoons cheer them on. You can dress it up any other way you like, but that's what it is.

There is no way of marketing this that will bring in people who aren't interested in watching other humans hurt each other. It's a niche sport, and always will be.

[Carbomb]

5 minutes ago, David said:

Look, we both know how the company works. They put their weight behind people who they believe have something that will connect them with the fans, and for those who don't have that something? Well, tough shit really.

How many champions do you know of that never got any promotion at all in a build-up to their fight? Even when Barao was dominating but still basically unknown, the UFC put together packages for the guy. Even DJ gets a bit of build-up. Again: Nunes got nothing.

As to how the company works - sure, if it was still Zuffa running things, I might have a bit more faith that they know what they're doing, and if they'd chosen not to market Nunes at all as well (which I doubt would've happened), I'd be more likely to accept that their choice was down to wisdom and experience. This current lot, though, have demonstrated their ineptness on numerous occasions.

5 minutes ago, David said:

 

You're talking as if the sport really evolved all that much. It didn't.

They stuck some gloves on the fighters, introduced rounds and divided into weight classes. Hardly groundbreaking stuff, is it? The audience, for the most part, still want to see a bunch of blokes tearing lumps out of each other and breaking each others heads open.

I'm not talking about how much the sport evolved, that's irrelevant. I'm talking about the simple fact that it did evolve, to affect a change that was significant, i.e. attracting a much wider demographic of people who wanted to see a sport rather than the human cock-fighting it had a reputation for being. The point is that the UFC recognised that it had to change, even just a bit, to make a bigger impact on its own fortunes in future.

5 minutes ago, David said:

It's got fuck all to do with being softer or timid, and is more to do with being, for the most part, smarter than men. 

Look throughout history. Guys love nothing better than killing and hurting each other, it's what guys do. How many serial killers are women? What's the percentage of violent criminals in prisons who are female?

Now, will a few women watch the sport? Of course they will, but is it enough to talk about changing demographics and altering the way the product is marketed and the audience is treated? Not in my opinion, no. 

Look, this is what it is, to coin Uncle Dana. It's guys smashing fuck out of each other in a steel cage while a bunch of mostly drunk buffoons cheer them on. You can dress it up any other way you like, but that's what it is.

There is no way of marketing this that will bring in people who aren't interested in watching other humans hurt each other. It's a niche sport, and always will be.

Yes, absolutely. But it's not marketed as that, is it? It's marketed as a sport, same way boxing and kickboxing is. Combat sports entire public image is centred on its target audience being helped to delude themselves that what they're seeing is some finely-tuned athletic endeavour, a "sweet science", if you will. 

If there's going to be some mass delusion going on, I'm all for women being given the opportunity to participate.

[David]

28 minutes ago, Carbomb said:

How many champions do you know of that never got any promotion at all in a build-up to their fight? Even when Barao was dominating but still basically unknown, the UFC put together packages for the guy. Even DJ gets a bit of build-up. Again: Nunes got nothing.

As to how the company works - sure, if it was still Zuffa running things, I might have a bit more faith that they know what they're doing, and if they'd chosen not to market Nunes at all as well (which I doubt would've happened), I'd be more likely to accept that their choice was down to wisdom and experience. This current lot, though, have demonstrated their ineptness on numerous occasions.

It was basically a case of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Nunes didn't matter in that fight, because it was all about Rousey coming back. 

Outside of the hardcore fans, do you think anyone really knew who Rousey was fighting? Of course not, they just knew that Rousey was fighting and that's all that mattered.

28 minutes ago, Carbomb said:

I'm not talking about how much the sport evolved, that's irrelevant. I'm talking about the simple fact that it did evolve, to affect a change that was significant, i.e. attracting a much wider demographic of people who wanted to see a sport rather than the human cock-fighting it had a reputation for being. The point is that the UFC recognised that it had to change, even just a bit, to make a bigger impact on its own fortunes in future.

Okay, but why did it evolve? It evolved because the company itself was being affected financially. They were being shut off from TV and PPV, and finding it hard to find states that would allow them to stage events.

There's no such need to evolve any further, especially to try and accommodate a minority of fans who follow a niche sport.

I have no doubt that if the company believed that female viewership held the key to making a considerable amount of money in future they'd think otherwise, but it doesn't, so they don't.

28 minutes ago, Carbomb said:

Yes, absolutely. But it's not marketed as that, is it? It's marketed as a sport, same way boxing and kickboxing is. Combat sports entire public image is centred on its target audience being helped to delude themselves that what they're seeing is some finely-tuned athletic endeavour, a "sweet science", if you will. 

If there's going to be some mass delusion going on, I'm all for women being given the opportunity to participate.

It is marketed as that. It's not even close to boxing in terms of pretending to be a regular sport. Boxing has professional commentators who don't shout at you as though they're working alongside Jim Ross on a 90's episode of Raw, boxing for the most part doesn't have promoters who swear and act like they should be in the crowd with a beer in their hand and a tight Affliction shirt on.

I'm not even going to talk about the fucking nu-metal shite that heralds in every PPV.

MMA is a few rungs further down the legitimacy ladder than boxing is, that's for sure.

I think the issue here is that you're approaching this from the mindset of a liberal person, which means you're very much in the minority when it comes to the MMA fanbase. Talking about people being given the "opportunity to participate" and suchlike. You get an "opportunity to participate" if you break heads and make the goons want to buy tickets to see you.

The whole sport is led by a guy who poses with and spoke in support of Donald fucking Trump. 

I'm not really sure what you expect? Truth is, if another "tidy bird" comes along who can fight while looking hot she's gonna get the promotional machine and womens MMA will be back in the spotlight.

Until then, the likes of Nunes just needs to accept that it is what it is, and make as much dough as they can and keep on keepin' on.

[Carbomb]

11 minutes ago, David said:

It was basically a case of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Nunes didn't matter in that fight, because it was all about Rousey coming back. 

Outside of the hardcore fans, do you think anyone really knew who Rousey was fighting? Of course not, they just knew that Rousey was fighting and that's all that mattered.

That's the entire point of what I'm arguing! Of course no-one knew, which is why they should've promoted her. People won't know who she is if you don't tell them, will they?

11 minutes ago, David said:

Okay, but why did it evolve? It evolved because the company itself was being affected financially. They were being shut off from TV and PPV, and finding it hard to find states that would allow them to stage events.

There's no such need to evolve any further, especially to try and accommodate a minority of fans who follow a niche sport.

I still dispute just how small a minority that is. If it's a significant enough minority who pays, then they should.

11 minutes ago, David said:

I have no doubt that if the company believed that female viewership held the key to making a considerable amount of money in future they'd think otherwise, but it doesn't, so they don't.

Again: I don't think the current lot running the UFC are anything to go by. Zuffa did make an effort to market their women's division.

11 minutes ago, David said:

It is marketed as that. It's not even close to boxing in terms of pretending to be a regular sport. Boxing has professional commentators who don't shout at you as though they're working alongside Jim Ross on a 90's episode of Raw, boxing for the most part doesn't have promoters who swear and act like they should be in the crowd with a beer in their hand and a tight Affliction shirt on.

I'm not even going to talk about the fucking nu-metal shite that heralds in every PPV.

MMA is a few rungs further down the legitimacy ladder than boxing is, that's for sure.

Howay, man - if that's the case, what's with all the sports-style presentation, the punditry, the "tale of the tape", the analyses on ESPN, etc.? It's clear they're at least trying to market it as a sport.

11 minutes ago, David said:

I think the issue here is that you're approaching this from the mindset of a liberal person, which means you're very much in the minority when it comes to the MMA fanbase. Talking about people being given the "opportunity to participate" and suchlike. You get an "opportunity to participate" if you break heads and make the goons want to buy tickets to see you.

Nunes has a fan-friendly style - she's a striker who beats up her opponents. She breaks heads. I don't see what's not to promote.

Maybe I am too right-on for my own good, but the UFC already raised the expectation by not only having women's divisions, but setting women's matches as main events.

11 minutes ago, David said:

The whole sport is led by a guy who poses with and spoke in support of Donald fucking Trump. 

Who was that? Genuinely haven't heard about this.

11 minutes ago, David said:

I'm not really sure what you expect? Truth is, if another "tidy bird" comes along who can fight while looking hot she's gonna get the promotional machine and womens MMA will be back in the spotlight.

Until then, the likes of Nunes just needs to accept that it is what it is, and make as money dough as they can and keep on keepin' on.

I really didn't expect you of all people to be arguing from this position, I have to say.

[d-d-d-dAz]

Dana is good mates with Trump, and did a speech at the Republican National Convention for him.

That said, Trump did put UFC shows on back when no one would touch them. I think it's loyalty more than anything. Dana doesn't seem like a deeply political man, he just wants to make money - i can't imagine he has the mental capacity to have conservative views on anything but economics. And, even then, he'd probably struggle to realise they're conservative.