David Posted October 17, 2011 Author Share Posted October 17, 2011 David in "taking the moral high ground because he can't remember what his own views are supposed to be" shocker. Cunt. Aw, don't be like that, Ricky. There's no need for such name-calling. Here, maybe this will help bring a smile back to your face; Â Actually, the Muslim God and the Christian God are the same. The Muslim faith even acknowledges Jesus as a prophet, just not the Son of God. Is that right? I never actually knew that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Duke Posted October 17, 2011 Paid Members Share Posted October 17, 2011 Clicky  Edit: In a nutshell  The Qur'an mentions Jesus twenty-five times, more often, by name, than Muhammad.[2][3] It states that Jesus was born to Mary (Arabic: Maryam) as the result of virginal conception, a miraculous event which occurred by the decree of God (Arabic: Allah). To aid in his ministry to the Jewish people, Jesus was given the ability to perform miracles (such as healing the blind, bringing dead people back to life, etc.), all by the permission of God rather than of his own power. According to the popular opinion and Muslim traditions, Jesus was not crucified but instead, he was raised up by God unto the heavens. This "raising" is understood to mean through bodily ascension. Muslims believe that Jesus will return to earth near the day of judgment to restore justice and to defeat Masih ad-Dajjal ("the false messiah", also known as the Antichrist).[4][5] Like all prophets in Islam, Jesus is considered to have been a Muslim (i.e., one who submits to the will of God), as he preached that his followers should adopt the "straight path" as commanded by God.  Islam rejects the Christian view that Jesus was God incarnate or the son of God, that he was ever crucified or resurrected, or that he ever atoned for the sins of mankind. The Qur'an says that Jesus himself never claimed any of these things, and it furthermore indicates that Jesus will deny having ever claimed divinity at the Last Judgment, and God will vindicate him.[6] The Qur'an emphasizes that Jesus was a mortal human being who, like all other prophets, had been divinely chosen to spread God's message. Islamic texts forbid the association of partners with God (shirk), emphasizing a strict notion of monotheism (tawhīd). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members tom Posted October 17, 2011 Paid Members Share Posted October 17, 2011 How many extreme Muslims are there here then, in comparison to all the peaceful well-adjusted brown people who just happen to like a different man-in-the-sky to you? Actually, the Muslim God and the Christian God are the same. The Muslim faith even acknowledges Jesus as a prophet, just not the Son of God. Â Â Not that Mickey's views aren't mental though. It's like saying "I've been to Ireland so now I won't leave my pint unguarded near a ginger person". Good point; I just wasn't sure so went with that as opposed to a sky-man with a different name; it likely would have resulted in a "well they'll make us call him their name" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted October 17, 2011 Author Share Posted October 17, 2011 The Qur'an mentions Jesus twenty-five times, more often, by name, than Muhammad.[2][3] It states that Jesus was born to Mary (Arabic: Maryam) as the result of virginal conception, a miraculous event which occurred by the decree of God (Arabic: Allah). To aid in his ministry to the Jewish people, Jesus was given the ability to perform miracles (such as healing the blind, bringing dead people back to life, etc.), all by the permission of God rather than of his own power. According to the popular opinion and Muslim traditions, Jesus was not crucified but instead, he was raised up by God unto the heavens. This "raising" is understood to mean through bodily ascension. Muslims believe that Jesus will return to earth near the day of judgment to restore justice and to defeat Masih ad-Dajjal ("the false messiah", also known as the Antichrist).[4][5] Like all prophets in Islam, Jesus is considered to have been a Muslim (i.e., one who submits to the will of God), as he preached that his followers should adopt the "straight path" as commanded by God.  Islam rejects the Christian view that Jesus was God incarnate or the son of God, that he was ever crucified or resurrected, or that he ever atoned for the sins of mankind. The Qur'an says that Jesus himself never claimed any of these things, and it furthermore indicates that Jesus will deny having ever claimed divinity at the Last Judgment, and God will vindicate him.[6] The Qur'an emphasizes that Jesus was a mortal human being who, like all other prophets, had been divinely chosen to spread God's message. Islamic texts forbid the association of partners with God (shirk), emphasizing a strict notion of monotheism (tawhīd). An interesting read there, cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiffy Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Sorry Kiffy, but we shouldn't have been there in the first place. We simply can't expect to invade and get involved in various countries business and then get all up in arms when those from the region who take issue with us decide to bomb the fuck out of our buses and trains. It's simply imperialist Britain doing what it does best, and I, along with many others, refuse to recognise British soldiers who willingly take part in it.  Yeah but that's overly simplistic shite. You can say we shouldn't be there in the first place, and it's wrong for us to topple dictators simply because we want oil. And I'd agree that the reasons were all wrong. But now we've done it, if we don't support the countries get back on their feet we're even worse cunts. The easiest thing in the world would be for us to simply leave iraq and afghanistan to it, but by doing so we'd be fucking stuff up for them. If you actually care about people from either country you'd be made to simply take our forces out. And therefore you have to accept that anyone signing up now, who gets sent over, is helping, and doing a fine thing.  And that's before you even look at the work we've done in places like bosnia, and go back to vital things like the second world war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big mickey Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 While we've been through it now and then, gotta credit Kiffy here, some good stuff put down Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted October 17, 2011 Author Share Posted October 17, 2011 Look at the facts. Â We invaded Iraq illegally. We then hunted down Saddam Hussein, and upon capturing him we allowed one of his major political opponents to visit him, not to offer respect or condolences I'll bet. This guy, who goes by the name Ahmed Chalabi just happens to be the guy who was instrumental in feeding us the nonsense about Saddam having weapons of mass destruction. Â Then, despite the fact the reason we actually invaded the country was proved to be complete bullshit we see Saddam hanged, and various members of his family killed (and photos of their corpses published in our media no less). Â The United Nations Secretary-General Kofi Annan made a statement in 2004 that the US-led invasion of Iraq was an illegal act that contravened the UN charter. Â Since then civilians in the country continue to die, around 70% of Iraqi children are suffering from trauma-related symptoms according to the WHO, almost half of the children in Iraq are now orphaned (this number runs into the millions). Â Throw in the fact that over 1.8 million Iraqis had been displaced to neighboring countries, and 1.6 million were displaced internally, with nearly 100,000 Iraqis fleeing to Syria and Jordan each month according to the U.N. High Commissioner for Refugees. Â There's plenty more, but being the smart fellow that you are I'm guessing you already know the sources to check, so I won't bother quoting them here. Â Since then no war crimes charges has been brought against any senior UK or US Government official. Â If you're honestly trying to tell me that "our boys" are over there doing some good then I really do despair for you mate. Seriously. Â You're one point that I agree with is that we can't pull out now that we've fucked the whole country up. But that doesn't mean I have any fucking respect for anyone who signs their name on the dotted line of their own freewill to go over there and take part in it. Â The sad thing is, my grandad fought in the 2nd world war and he was fucking appalled by the actions of "our boys" in the middle east. To quote the man himself "if they don't agree with it they should either not sign up in the first place or grow a pair and object to take part". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiffy Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 None of those things are happening now though, as bad as some of that is. (And really, sadam being hung seems fine and dandy to me, he's a mass murdering cunt who got what was coming) it's vital we do something now to sort the mess out. Its all very well saying you realise we have to be there to help rebuild it, but bearing in mind thats true how can you morally object to anyone signing up now who then goes there and does it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big mickey Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 What people like David sadly choose to ignore is that there is a very large element of people in those countries who are trying their damned hardest to stop us making any progress in restructuring and rebuilding and have no qualms about killing their own people on a daily basis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrAzY Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Last year I went to Iraq. Before Team America showed up, it was a happy place. They had flowery meadows and rainbow skies, and rivers made of chocolate, where the children danced and laughed and played with gumdrop smiles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members tom Posted October 17, 2011 Paid Members Share Posted October 17, 2011 Last year I went to Iraq. Before Team America showed up, it was a happy place. They had flowery meadows and rainbow skies, and rivers made of chocolate, where the children danced and laughed and played with gumdrop smiles. No one denies that it was a pretty shit place previously, but it's still a pretty shit place now, and probably even more insecure and dangerous than it was before. And re: Mickey's point; surely that just puts it into the footing of being a Civil War, especially as you would surely need to deem that a large element of people equates to a certain level of public opinion that agrees with this view point and is willing to fight its fellow citizens over Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big mickey Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Well yes and no The main problem is that that the people at the end of the violence are the same people who were on the receiving end of the previous brutal regime. That regime that we tried to destroy aren't giving in easily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members ReturnOfTheMack Posted October 17, 2011 Paid Members Share Posted October 17, 2011 almost half of the children in Iraq are now orphaned (this number runs into the millions). Â Â Really? I find that hard to believe, but its a scary number if its true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted October 17, 2011 Author Share Posted October 17, 2011 Really? I find that hard to believe, but its a scary number if its true. I wish it wasn't true. I can find you a link to the information when I have time tomorrow if you wish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members ReturnOfTheMack Posted October 17, 2011 Paid Members Share Posted October 17, 2011 Please mate. Less about not believe you than just not believing the scale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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