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The Lucha Libre Thread


Vamp
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So I've thought about starting this for a while and, since I know there's a few luchaheads around, here it is. The thread for all things lucha libre, whether it be AAA, CMLL or your a Black Terry mark and watch IWRG religiously.

 

Personally I'm mainly a AAA fan myself, although I'll watch CMLL every now and then. There's something a lot more watchable about AAA for me. I think its a combination of more angles to follow and that the style of CMLL booking, and wrestling, can make you feel like you're just watching the same show over and over again. CMLL really seems in a rut to me. They'll have damned good matches, don't get me wrong, but the only wrestler that I really feel connects is Averno. I'm not really behind any of their technicos at the moment.

 

AAA has recetnly recapped their big summer event on TV. The build wasn't great, it was too soon after TripleMania really, but I have to say I enjoyed the it more than 'Mania. TripleMania just seemed to drag, the TNA involvement hindered the show (it didn't seem such an issue with Verando Escandelo) and there were too many weapon filled brawls. Although admittedly AAA decided to show three bloody brawls in one week in their recap, not sure who's genius idea that was. The Circus/PdM blow off (assuming it is) was a little disappointing. On the plus side though it looks like there's a slight chance of them giving us L.A. Park vs. Jarrett which is pretty much the best use I can think of for JJ in AAA.

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Great thread.

 

I'm a follower and a fan of lucha libre, and have been since I first caught it on Galavision on Astra satellite way back in the spring of 1994. I was hooked on both AAA and CMLL until Galavision disappeared from Astra1in mid-1997. I then caught the odd little bit here and there on compilations from traders over the years, but started watching CMLL again full-time in 2004 when I started getting the weekly TV from traders. I became a huge fan again, even picking up shows from the Guadalajara CMLL affiliate, Lucha Libre Azteca and others if there was something that caught my eye. You may even remember I started the old lucha libre discussion thread on here and was reviewing the weekly TV shows as I went. Started watching AAA again in 2007 the same way.

 

Unfortunately, with one thing or another (mainly time), I've let my viewing slip over the last few years and haven't seen anything since 2008. Yeah, I know.

 

Having said that, I have been keeping up with results and happenings and just a couple of weeks ago I ordered a whole load more discs of a select choice of CMLL shows between then and now in order to quickly catch up with the main stuff I've missed. When I get stuck into them, I'll probably put some reviews etc up here in this thread like I have been doing recently in the ROH Discussion thread as I try to catch up there too.

 

I'll probably do the same with AAA by getting the big shows from 2008-2011 too, as well as starting watching the up-to-date stuff from CMLL, AAA, IWRG and PdM now that it is all easily available freely on YouTube.

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To be fair, it's a bit of a stretch to even call AAA 'lucha libre' nowadays. It's essentially a hardcore fed, and even when there's no weapons around, most matches are still just big messy clusterfucks

 

I usually keep up with it out of habit and just for the fact it's at hand on youtube. But despite my perseverance, I usually end up disappointed. Fun opening match spot monkeys, Drago in the middle and LA Park up top are about all I find entertaining, along with the clowns and Inframundo/Bizarros stuff occasionally. Park/Mesias aside, those past two big shows have been really bad. I probably should just chuck it and save myself an hour or two a week.

 

Not that CMLL's a whole lot better these days, but for all it's faults it at least still somewhat resembles lucha libre. Maybe i'm just too old fashioned :)

 

I don't know how business is, but generally, in terms of the quality of what's coming on our screens, wrestling in Mexico is pretty bad just now.

 

Looks like Sting's coming in for the next AAA PPV too which could be interesting - but if he's of the same mindset as every other TNA guy who's turned up in AAA, it will effectively be a night off for him.

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Can someone please fill me in on this Black Terry guy? I keep seeing his name pop up every now and again, but there isn't really much info out there on him and the only pics I've seen he just looks like a Hispanic version of my dad. What's his deal?

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Can someone please fill me in on this Black Terry guy? I keep seeing his name pop up every now and again, but there isn't really much info out there on him and the only pics I've seen he just looks like a Hispanic version of my dad. What's his deal?

An incredible worker, in his late 50s, who was a veteran from the old UWA. He's a part of Los Terribles Cerebros, the main guys in IWRG, with Dr Cerebro and Cerebro Negro. He might even have been one of the guys who was over here a couple of months ago for Lucha Future, I can't exactly remember (and I couldn't make the shows myself due to holidays).

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An incredible worker, in his late 50s, who was a veteran from the old UWA. He's a part of Los Terribles Cerebros, the main guys in IWRG, with Dr Cerebro and Cerebro Negro. He might even have been one of the guys who was over here a couple of months ago for Lucha Future, I can't exactly remember (and I couldn't make the shows myself due to holidays).

 

Cheers for the info. Anything specific worth checking out? I've managed to find a few clips on Youtube but it's always nice to have a starting point.

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Can someone please fill me in on this Black Terry guy? I keep seeing his name pop up every now and again, but there isn't really much info out there on him and the only pics I've seen he just looks like a Hispanic version of my dad. What's his deal?

 

60 year old phenom superworker. Here he is having a match about a month ago.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Da9sXE89Ark (First fill, you'll have to find the rest)

 

Edited by ButchReedMark
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You probably are right about AAA Reznor. The lucha libre element isn't the main element of their product. I've only been into lucha libre this year but I have spent half of that time watching clips of older matches and so forth. CMLL is closer to a more traditional style but I kind of feel AAA offers more variety and stronger characters. CMLL's good to dip in and out of and catch a match here and there but at the moment its a struggle to try and watch them weekly. It just feels like there's nothing really to get into where as at least AAA tries to encourage frequent viewing. AAA would benefit from a little bit more of an emphasis on their openers. I wasn't a fan of TripleMania at all because the most interesting looking match was a dark match and the majority of it was, as you rightly said, hardcore wrestling. That said Park vs. Mesias was a great match.

 

I haven't really bothered much with IWRG. I've seen bits and pieces, and obviously Terry's a world class wrestler but I can't say I've bothered with their full shows. Are they worth watching at all?

 

But reviews would be great. As would general pimping out of matches from any time period. The thing I'm enjoying about lucha is the sheer amount of it there is to discover. That and general discussion of course.

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They certainly have an interesting take on how to run business in CMLL.

 

Homegrown lucha has been hit hard by the increased presence of WWE in Mexico now, what with the TV now widely available for the first time and them running numerous live tours there per year. The younger generations therefore see the WWE superstars as the big stars and the public are more likely to save their money to spend on the more expensive WWE tour tickets than on cheaper weekly CMLL shows. The weekly attendance for the big weekly Friday Arena Mexico shows is down to about 6,000ish (still, think about it - they are still drawing 6,000 people to the SAME ARENA every week.... and this is considered to be a down period).

 

However, while some promoters would be throwing out huge matches, big stipulations, massive name masks on the line etc in a hope to snatch back some of the business, CMLL decide that the business is cyclical, people will eventually come back to their product, and so there is no point throwing away big money matches when the business is down and having nothing left when it comes back up again.

 

Instead, their model is to sit tight in somewhat of a holding pattern, trying to get new faces and new stars over as they go, and start offering the HUGE matches again when the masses are interested again and they can make the kind of money such bouts would get in a 'boom' period.

 

Problem this time, however, is that while they have been elevating several of their roster through the ranks to main event status, I don't believe they have created any genuine mega stars since Mistico in 2004/5. Also, while they are correct in noting that the business has always been cyclical and has picked up again, I'm not sure that this is the case when so much of the reason for the downturn this time is due to the presence of a new, bigger, brighter and more starstruck alternative in the WWE taking the interest of their potential audience, rather than just a natural downswing.

 

Who knows, maybe the whole WWE thing (which is MASSIVE in Mexico right now) is a fad what will fade and no loner be "cool" after a while.....

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You probably are right about AAA Reznor. The lucha libre element isn't the main element of their product. I've only been into lucha libre this year but I have spent half of that time watching clips of older matches and so forth. CMLL is closer to a more traditional style but I kind of feel AAA offers more variety and stronger characters. CMLL's good to dip in and out of and catch a match here and there but at the moment its a struggle to try and watch them weekly. It just feels like there's nothing really to get into where as at least AAA tries to encourage frequent viewing. AAA would benefit from a little bit more of an emphasis on their openers. I wasn't a fan of TripleMania at all because the most interesting looking match was a dark match and the majority of it was, as you rightly said, hardcore wrestling. That said Park vs. Mesias was a great match.

 

I haven't really bothered much with IWRG. I've seen bits and pieces, and obviously Terry's a world class wrestler but I can't say I've bothered with their full shows. Are they worth watching at all?

 

But reviews would be great. As would general pimping out of matches from any time period. The thing I'm enjoying about lucha is the sheer amount of it there is to discover. That and general discussion of course.

Yeah, AAA has definitely been influenced by American wrestling, both WWE and the Indies, and as such have almost created their own thing for a new audience. Seems to work for them as I think they're beating CMLL in the ratings these days, but there's barely a traditional aspect of lucha libre that remains. I think if I wasn't aware of how great AAA used to be from its inception until the WCW guys left, I probably wouldn't be as hard on it. But seeing what it once was and what it's now become is pretty grim for a lucha fan, even if it has been gradually turning that way for a dozen years or more.

 

You are right about CMLL, and it's lack of big storylines and big characters is mainly because of the traditional aspect; Lucha libre was always pretty simple - good v evil, and feuds were simply built around that. It didn't have to be much more complex. But as well as that, there's also a widely held belief that Paco Alonso, the CMLL owner, doesn't really give a fuck, and it seems these days that his attitude has filtered all the way down to the bookers and members of 'creative'. This results in what you see on tv - illogical & lazy booking, lacklustre feuds, non-existant build to big shows etc etc. They appear pretty content to just tread water with the minimum of effort. As traditional as it was, there has been great characters and stables in CMLL through the years though. They also used to be great with filmed skits and promos on their shows, but they've sadly disappeared now too.

 

Most of my lucha enjpyment these days does come from watching old tapes. Particularly ones I have CMLL from 1997 - 2005, and AAA from 1993-1995, although i'm resigned to now never having anywhere near as much footage as I would've hoped to have. My guilty pleasure is 1997 AAA. It was on it's way to becoming a bit crap, but there was still loads of fun stuff with the Space Cadets v Vipers, and locals killing themselves in openers, but it still had some of the more 'classic' type of luchadors and legends like Canek, Aguayo, Pierroth etc as well as a good minis division and some of the WWF duffers turning up.

 

I've been a fan for about 12 years now, and i'm like you with rgards to just how much is out there. I'll be lucky if I've saw 10% of what i'd like to see and unless I win the lottery, it's probably not going to rise above that. And that's considering lucha libre was barely ever taped prior to the late 80s. If I was eto focus on seeing a lot more from a certain period, apart from those periods I mentioned above, i'd like to get a lot of early 90s CMLL when you had greats like Atlantis, Angel Azteca, Lizmark Sr, Volador, Fuerza Guerrera, Super Astro, Blue Panther, Los Capos etc. and so many more in their primes.

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Hmm, all good, interesting points. A wonderful discussion so far, I should have created this thread ages ago instead of thinking there'd be little interest. On with a review...

CMLL 23rd August 2011

 

I skip the women because I'm a sexist. Although I should mention I like the female commentator (Karla?) even though I have no clue what she's saying. Always feels different.

Magnus/Dragon Lee vs. Puma King/Tiger

We join this match in progress, I'm not sure how much is missing. Shocker's at ringside which is nice to see. It seems mostly to be a showcase for Dragon Lee, or at least it ends up that way since he's hitting some of the damndest spots I've seen. There's one where he leaps from the ramp, over the top rope and comes down with a senton that almost lifts me from my chair. He does a nice flippy thing onto the ramp later as well. Shame he's a skinny runt, even by luchadore standards. King and Tiger have an altercation towards the end of the match and then do the job. Neither man's happy. Their seconds both seem to think their friend is the better wrestler which ends up with Tiger's second spearing the other one and beating him down. The poor King of Pumas doesn't know what to do. He tries to intervene but he's partner holds him back. Didn't feel like a lot was happening other than that but Lee made it entertaining. Worth a watch for him alone. Even if he is going to kill himself sooner or later. His elbow drop which got the first fall seriously needs work though. Or to be dropped. Heh.

 

Two of the commentators just shouted out the same phrase at the same time. Aww, cute...

 

Diamante/Palacio Negro/Metal Blanco vs. Raziel/Cancerbero/Yoshihashi

The first fall is all about the rudos, and what wonderful work they do. Yoshihashi, who has the most awful facepaint design I've ever seen, comes in, does a clothesline and then parades about like a complete arrogant tosser. That's pretty much his whole contribution at this point. Rudos take apart the technicos one by one, finishing the first fall with a wonderful Mexican surboard/neckbreaker/neck strain hold of doom combination which should be clipped right now. It won't be by me but it still should be. The second fall isn't so great. The technico come back is a bit too rushed, Palacio hits a spinny splashy thing with way too many revolutions (meaning it doesn't hit properly) and one of the technico falls is a flipping piledriver (I'm not calling it the Canadian Destroyer, fuck off) which the fans promptly jeer. Too bloody right. It takes a triple synchronised senton over the ropes to get the fans back on side so I'm giving the dives a 7.0. The match was strongest when the rudos were in control, at other times it seemed a little weak. A couple of very nice submission holds though and very good rudo work.

 

Super Porki/Maximo/Estrellita vs. Averno/Mephisto/Polvara

I'm kinda looking forward to this. Averno is pretty great right now, Super Porki is umm, Super Porki and Maximo can sometimes be quite fun. Looks like a fun watch on paper. There's enough stalling at the star for this to be an All Stars match but you expect it here. Maximo looks determined to kiss Averno but he's not as keen and essentially the rudos refuse to start the match off against the pink haired warrior. The first fall isn't pretty, but that's mainly because of Porki who's really not looking good here. There seems to a stretch of the fall where nothing's happening. Maximo and Averno partner off for a lot of it and deliver the early highlights but it's not enough to save this fall from being anything but ugly. Porki does a fun spot. No really, he does. I'd hate to wrestle him. Estrellita gets to shine for a little bit and looks good but its mainly about Maximo and the gay hating Averno. The technicos get a surprising victory, albeit by DQ. I wouldn't bother with this personally. What was good, was really good (if you like Maximo), but everything else was poor.

 

CMLL World Light Heavyweight Championship

Rush vs. Mr. Aguila

There was a pretty good heavyweight title match the other week so these two have a lot to live up to. I should also mention that I love the way CMLL present title match. The first fall is the very definition of basic. Why do people buy drinks if they're sitting in the front row at a CMLL event? Anyway...The second falls more exciting, although I assume they're holding back a bit for the third. Mr. Aguila hits an amazing dive where it actually looks like he's floating for a moment. He's not human. In the third fall this match basically falls apart. There's near falls off everything. There's a bloody near fall off a run into a turnbuckle, which would be fine I suppose but this near fall phase seems to go on for ages. That and they couldn't make calling the match any more obvious if they tried. Poor main event in my opinion. Maybe it's a case of these two just couldn't go this long.

 

Overall a decent enough show, I wouldn't bother with the main event though. Nothing must watch worthy though. Replace Super Porki in the Averno match and you'd probably have something quite good. Better than last week's AAA show though which had a pretty fun opener but little else.

Edited by Vamp
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