RIOT!

[DJ Kris]

Not the same opportunity, there are HUGE differences between schools in certain areas. Some schools have a majority of children that come out with their GCSE's, some have a majority that don't. You're not telling me that this is down to the kids are you? Absolutely ridiculous.

Is it though? Tell me if I've got something wrong, but every child in the country is not only provided with a school place, but it is a legal requirement for them to attend. If they play truent who is to blame for that? Who's responsible? Now if they do go to school every day and still come out of it without even the ability to read or do basic maths then I agree, something is wrong with the school that has to be delt with.

 

Now when you say there's a feeling of hoplessness, a why bother attitude, I think you're definately right, but that's an attitude that needs to change from within, with the child, with the parents. Someone can say they're can't get a job in a bank, but if they didn't bother with school then they haven't given themselves a chance and of course the job will go to someone from a better area who did bother.

 

They all have opportunities to better themselves right now if they choose to take those opportunities. Once they've done that and they are qualified and skilled for the job they go for and yet it goes to someone less suitable because they are from a better area, then that is the point someone else becomes responsible.

 

If you grew up in a foreign language speaking household and have problems with English you can take ESOL classes for free.

This is another thing. A British born child should be able to speak the language of the country they are being brought up in. Ideally people moving here from abroad should make that effort anyway, but they should certainly ensure that they child does.

 

I think this is a problem in some areas, people moving here are not intergrating into society, rather creating their own little piece of home in parts of towns and citys. Yes, I am aware the English do this too.

[Dead Mike]

I agree and I believe the issues are too difficult for a politician elected by the public to discuss. The matter of over-population as a whole will never be tackled, the welfare society will never properly be managed, the reason in which people have children with no money will never be openly debated to a conclusion and of course how any of these problems will actually be rectified will never be done by a modern politician as he wants a job and the matters are too divisive. The fact that mentality has gradually changed in Britain too is a problem, no longer are we a hard working, get what you pay for nation. We are a government dependant charity case in most parts who cant afford it anymore.

 

Exactly this. What we're left with is people skirting around the real issues trying to find a scapegoat agreeable to general public so we can't finger point until people have forgotten about it & then just hope it's another 30 years til it kicks off again.

 

Without taking this too far off-topic, watching Question Time last night made me think how people have got very short/selective memories. People complaining that the police are supposedly powerless these days etc but forget that the reason the police have to thoroughly document their activity, causing 'red tape' & 'bobby's tied to their desks' & the reason they can't give someone a 'clip round the ear' is because they had these powers previously & they got abused to the point that they had to be overhauled. If the police hadn't fucked it up for themselves in the first place we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Edited August 12, 2011 by Dead Mike

[Loki]

I'm not, but you made a post before that made lots of sense, just don't see how you think you will earn anyones respect by calling them scum. It's not bullshit whatsoever, but cheers for being so polite.

 

You're back to conflating the labelling of rioters and arsonists as 'scum' with the labelling of all poor people as 'scum'. Again.

 

As long as all your arguments hang off this false premise, your entire input into this thread is useless. Again.

 

Tiresome.

[Ross]

That may be true but the figures in Tottenham don't show this. ~90% (most over 90 a few in the 80s) coming out at level 1 in KS4 attainment (at least 5 A*-G). One of the worst in terms of Ofsted reports had 94% getting at least and 5 A*-G. The school at the end of my road only gets 93% of at least 5 A*-G. The absolute worst in a 5 mile radius of Tottenham is in Leyton with 84% KS4 Level 1 attainment. Personally, I think that's a poor figure, but still the overwhelming majority of children within 5 miles of Tottenham leave school with at least 5 GCSEs of some description. (The ones that show as 0% are usually independents or schools who do qualifications such as iGCSEs which aren't included in official statistics).

 

The lowest figure of at least one qualification, again at the same lowly rated school, is 96%. My local comp only manages to better than by 1%.

 

The 5 A*-C has the biggest discrepancy, but neither are much to write home about. 31% for the same school in Tottenham and 36% for my local comp. I wouldn't blow the trumpet for either of those figures to be honest.

 

Anything less than a C at GCSE is useless, so we can pretty much dismiss those A*-G figures. A*-C is what we should be looking at, and as you can see, pretty terrible figures as far as that goes.

 

You're back to conflating the labelling of rioters and arsonists as 'scum' with the labelling of all poor people as 'scum'. Again.

 

As long as all your arguments hang off this false premise, your entire input into this thread is useless. Again.

 

Tiresome.

 

No, I'm talking about the rioters. Labelling them all as one group of 'scum' is pretty fucking tiresome for me as well.

[Duke]

Stephen Fry made a fair point on his twitter (forgive me if it's been posted, I ain't seen it) when it all kicked off saying that he was on the other side of the world and was just as far away from the rioters as he is when he's in London.

[Surf Digby]

If I wanted to get payback on every company that had not responded to an application I'd never have time to do anything else.

I'm available for hire, if you want me to do it for you.

 

That's useful if you can read. I think you're forgetting the fact that some of these people will have never read a book in their lives and some of them wouldn't be able to even if they tried.

Reading is a skill, it can be practiced. Read shitty fiction, reference books, rude poems, whatever. What's stopping two of these people making a pact to read a "teach yourself" book and then test each other?

 

My ex's brother used to use the "I can't read" excuse, but he could read the booklet that came with a Playstation game easily enough.

[big mickey]

Sad to hear of that poor guy dying, and what with the 3 lads in Birmingham, that's 4 lives lost for what?

 

Some "good guy" who happened to be carrying a loaded gun?

 

Fuck off.

[spurs 4 life]

I don't have one GCSE above a grade C and yet i own (mortgage) a 3 bedroom house in a nice area and have plenty of career options.

[Ross]

I don't have one GCSE above a grade C and yet i own (mortgage) a 3 bedroom house in a nice area and have plenty of career options.

 

Lucky you, and I'm sure you've worked hard for that, but unfortunately that's not going to be the reality for a lot of them, especially during tough economic times where the employment market is more competitive than ever.

[spurs 4 life]

Lucky you, and I'm sure you've worked hard for that, but unfortunately that's not going to be the reality for a lot of them, especially during tough economic times where the employment market is more competitive than ever.

 

I was more making the point that qualifications aren't the be all and end all.

 

As i've said to you many a time. I feel there is a difference between a youngster living in London and someone living elsewhere. I was lucky that even though i was a useless school kid i lived in London during my twenties so whilst i did struggle at times i always did find work in the end and i found a place that let me progress.

 

I'm aware that those sort of opportunities might not exist outside London but within it they most definatly do.

[Loki]

This is one of the problems with socialism for me, speaking broadly - it can't distinguish between individuals, and so has to lump them together for the purposes of distributing "fairness". Because spurs 4 life doesn't fit into Whiskey's model of the poorly educated, it's irrelevant to his thesis. The fact that people from identical backgrounds are capable of achieving such different results is aggravating to those who'd like to do broad social re-engineering, as it kind of pisses on simplistic views like "oh, it's a lack of good education that causes poverty, therefore better education=less poverty".

 

That's not to say that the thesis doesn't have merit - there's undoubtedly a link between education and poverty, but it's not a simple analogue.

[spurs 4 life]

This is one of the problems with socialism for me, speaking broadly - it can't distinguish between individuals, and so has to lump them together for the purposes of distributing "fairness". Because spurs 4 life doesn't fit into Whiskey's model of the poorly educated, it's irrelevant to his thesis. The fact that people from identical backgrounds are capable of achieving such different results is aggravating to those who'd like to do broad social re-engineering, as it kind of pisses on simplistic views like "oh, it's a lack of good education that causes poverty, therefore better education=less poverty".

 

That's not to say that the thesis doesn't have merit - there's undoubtedly a link between education and poverty, but it's not a simple analogue.

 

Totally agree with this.

[Ross]

This is one of the problems with socialism for me, speaking broadly - it can't distinguish between individuals, and so has to lump them together for the purposes of distributing "fairness". Because spurs 4 life doesn't fit into Whiskey's model of the poorly educated, it's irrelevant to his thesis. The fact that people from identical backgrounds are capable of achieving such different results is aggravating to those who'd like to do broad social re-engineering, as it kind of pisses on simplistic views like "oh, it's a lack of good education that causes poverty, therefore better education=less poverty".

 

That's not to say that the thesis doesn't have merit - there's undoubtedly a link between education and poverty, but it's not a simple analogue.

 

I've never suggested one size fits all approach anyway. Nothing is a given, but it's all about chance. I've never said you can't achieve if you come from a poor background, just that your chances are a lot lower.

 

What is really frustrating for me is that people who have come from a poor background and have broken away from it seem to forget that and instead of trying to help people from that background just say 'well if I can do it, anyone can', when blatantly that is not the case.

[Kenny McBride]

This is one of the problems with socialism for me, speaking broadly - it can't distinguish between individuals, and so has to lump them together for the purposes of distributing "fairness". Because spurs 4 life doesn't fit into Whiskey's model of the poorly educated, it's irrelevant to his thesis. The fact that people from identical backgrounds are capable of achieving such different results is aggravating to those who'd like to do broad social re-engineering, as it kind of pisses on simplistic views like "oh, it's a lack of good education that causes poverty, therefore better education=less poverty".

 

That's not to say that the thesis doesn't have merit - there's undoubtedly a link between education and poverty, but it's not a simple analogue.

But then your view ignores the vast social engineering carried out under 18 years of Tory government which helped establish such a fragmented society in the first place. The 60s and 70s weren't some idyllic utopia, but there was at least a sense of solidarity and a belief in self-improvement through education and hard work. That solidarity was eroded by Thatcheristic individualism and the concept of self-improvement was lost when traditional industries were destroyed, removing many job opportunities for people who wereen't high achievers academically.

[spurs 4 life]

I've never suggested one size fits all approach anyway. Nothing is a given, but it's all about chance. I've never said you can't achieve if you come from a poor background, just that your chances are a lot lower.

 

What is really frustrating for me is that people who have come from a poor background and have broken away from it seem to forget that and instead of trying to help people from that background just say 'well if I can do it, anyone can', when blatantly that is not the case.

What's really frustrating for me is when people come out with bollocks like that last paragraph.