Chinatown: Mafia Scum Thread

[Dazz]

@Seph

 

What would you like to hear about my case? Question me, and I'll gladly answer

[Retro Red]

I've missed a lot, so let me summarise where I am.

 

1) It's obvious now that there are two different Scum factions, or so I believe. The Triads (Evil people), and some other Scum faction. What the implications of this are, I don't know. Is it the day-kill that one Scum has, and a night kill that the other has? Or can they both whack at any time, leaving us in limbo?

 

2) Ron Simmons, I am still slightly suspcious of you. There's something about you that just doesn't say town to me. I've not been about, and nor have you really, but, it seems that the suspicions towards you just won't shake. And surely that's not a good thing at all? I do however agree with you pushing for a vote, but, rather than rushing a vote, we should really consider it, because, even if the vote does get blitzed (Which could have been a one time deal only), we've gotta be sure we're lynching the right people.

 

3) RE: Bristep. I'm not sure I believe his bulletproof claim, likewise, I don't think he's scum. I'm confused by Bristep at this time, and before the end of the day phase I'll have a good little peruse into his interactions in this game to get an idea of what exactly I think of him.

 

4) SMS - I don't believe you are scum. I think you are one of the town with us, I've seen nothing in my mind to suggest otherwise.

 

5) Chris B - I like your view on Teedy. Therefore.

 

Vote : Teedy Kay

 

Dazz : Nice post, but it looks forced. What are your thoughts on Chris Stone? Teedy Kay (other than sheeping Chris's opinion.)? Snake? Dan? Seph? Finlay?

 

You're not making any mention to the quieter players, which can be understandable but to give no opinion of Chris who is one of the main contributers to the game so far is quite odd.

[Retro Red]

Bristep just a quick question:

 

You're bullet-proof and if the day killer targetted you today that's why we haven't seen a kill, although surely the day killer (scum or SK) should have targetted Ron, especially when it started to seem like Ron was not to be the lynch target? Unless of course Ron is actually one of these 2. I mean, even with your suspicions and such it is quite the gamble to leave Ron in the game over a breadcrumbed tracker?

 

Would you agree it's likely that one or more of these are true?:

a) Ron is infact the day killer

b) The day killer believes there is enough distance from himself and ron that he need not worry about ron right now

c) You were getting close to the day killer at some point

d) The day killer has a cooldown on his kill ability

 

as for the 'missing' night kill:

If they shot you they must have had a reason to do so, does anything stick out as to why you would be targetted? Usually we see a seemingly random shot from scum you must have done something to piss them off. Is there anyone else you can see who might have been a target from scum that night who may also have been somebody likely to gain protection if so, who would have maybe escaped scrutiny from their death, who may have been stitched up?

 

Well the second bit is the line of enquiry i'll be seeking to look down later today once i've had a sleep, we can't assume that the kill attempt was on Bristep as we may have a protector amongst us, if that's the case working out the most likely candidate for protection and who that would implicate might be helpful. Any speculation on these points is actively encouraged from absolutely anybody at this point, we need to get a case fairly quickly and i feel this may help us, or at least back up cases already out there or ready to be brought to the forefront of discussion.

 

Thing is, it's only speculation that the daykill might have already been attempted. We have absolutely no way of knowing if it has, or if it's 1 shot/alternate days/etc either. I roleclaimed because people are caught up on setup speculation, and this is required info.

 

The only person who knows for sure what the daykiller does and why they do it is himself. Anyone else is just speculating really.

 

As for the which is most likely - Again you're acting like I've come out and said that I'm certain the daykill has already been used and it was on me. I'm not, I merely said it was possible. Of course from a straight forward scum point of view Ron would be next. I'm not going to try and second guess the actions of a lone SK if that's what we've got. They be all crazy and shit.

 

Also maybe they make the assumption that Ron would have a doctor protecting him (if there is one) and that it's not worth taking that shot. Why not take out the person who's flip would incriminate Ron the most and get him lynched instead? (Something that you've already made inroads towards with your "If Ron is town Bristep is scum, if Bristep is town Ron is scum" comment")

 

Firstly allow me to say that my questions weren't trying to determine the validity of your claim, rather that they were trying to look for routes in which we could investigate down. You seem to answer these almost defensively and you even throw a little misrepping in for good meassure.

 

Let me make clear that all i was essentially asking was: Do you think anyone else other than yourself and Ron could have been targets for the night kill, if so who and who and were they likely to have been protected?

 

(Something that you've already made inroads towards with your "If Ron is town Bristep is scum, if Bristep is town Ron is scum" comment")

 

I didn't say this, if you read back on my comment what i said was the following: 'If Ron flips scum, Bristep must be town - If Bristep flips scum Ron must be town' whilst giving the possibility of it being town on town but that my gut was not to believe such.

 

This was a very defensive reply to a post just looking for your thoughts, not for evidence to incriminate you but since you want to defend yourself allow me to raise a few points:

 

I remember looking upon your tracker breadcrumbing in the early part of the game, what I noticed was that you did it a couple of times not long before Brownies death yet you stopped from that point (unless i missed something). Also, as I said your breadcrumbing was prior to Brownies death and when he came to flip as a watcher, did that make it more likely there was a tracker in the game and you didn't want to breadcrumb anymore incase of counterclaims or because such could get you shot? Not only this but surely with brownies death occuring after the breadcrumbing you should have been the target that day phase, then again I doubt a tracker would be of much concern for a day killer.

 

The bullet proof claim is fantastic, it allows you to go through the days without being lynched, it allows you to go through the night and day without being targetted and like my own theories of the past, there's evidence supporting it but nothing proving it. With a Watcher dead it's a fair assumption to say we may have a tracker in the game but fairly safe to say there's unlikely a completely sane cop anywhere in the setup and that my friend, makes disproving your claim quite difficult.

 

Infact the more i think about your role claim the more scenario's i have in my head where you could be lying - there's even one scenario where you and Ron are scum together, it's actually quite a cute theory and has very little in the way of holes. However, i've little reason to distrust your claim for the time being but that doesn't mean i'll see you as confirmed town any time soon and infact, i suggest Ron or whomever else can to test it.

 

It's that old roundabout again, I said clearly that your questioning makes it look like I'm saying things that I'm not. You retort and say you're doing no such thing and that i'm being defensive.

 

Clever use of word play is a good way of influencing players, for instance "The bullet proof claim is fantastic" should really be "If untrue, the bullet proof claim is fantastic". By omitting that qualifier it implies that you're already decided that I'm lying (or know I'm telling the truth and don't want to leave any leeway for others to think that).

 

Regarding the tracker claim, again we disagree because I saw the watcher reveal as an indication that a tracker wouldn't likely be in the game. They were fake breadcrumbs and there was never a fake roleclaim planned at the end of it. I wanted scum to pick up on it, especially if they were hunting for power roles, and waste a kill. Once the brownie kill took place I just left it because the game changed and it didn't seem worth carrying on with.

 

As far as the "I didn't say this, if you read back on my comment what i said was the following: 'If Ron flips scum, Bristep must be town - If Bristep flips scum Ron must be town' whilst giving the possibility of it being town on town but that my gut was not to believe such. " It's definitely tried and tested scum play, I know because I've done it myself when 2 polarising town players have such a large set to early on.

 

However, I don't think you're on either side right now. I think that if the day kill is a SK then you're it.

[Ron Simmons]

5) Chris B - I like your view on Teedy. Therefore.

 

Vote : Teedy Kay

 

@ Dazz

 

This is what I find pretty uncomfortable. You vote for someone based on like someone else's case on them, without stating what exactly you like about the case. You've made a few lazy votes like this in this game and last, and while I applaud your theorizing etc. I don't feel comfortable with the reasons your vote has gone in the direction that it has. To me it reads "I like what he's saying, so I'll follow it", rather than what you should say, which is "I think he makes a compelling case, here's why...Teedy how would you respond to that?"

 

You've placed a vote without giving Teedy anything to respond to, and to me that's poor at best, scummy at worst.

 

unvote

Vote Dazz

[Chris_Stone]

As far as the "I didn't say this, if you read back on my comment what i said was the following: 'If Ron flips scum, Bristep must be town - If Bristep flips scum Ron must be town' whilst giving the possibility of it being town on town but that my gut was not to believe such. " It's definitely tried and tested scum play, I know because I've done it myself when 2 polarising town players have such a large set to early on.

 

If I had said 'If one flips town, the other must be scum' i'd understand your point but that is not what i said and if you'd like to read back to find it you'll see that it isn't.

However, my wording on the point of your roleclaim was bad, that said I end the post with 'Ive no reason to distrust your claim' - I wasn't trying to paint that fact you were lying.

 

Something you did mention in your response to dazz's post was the idea that Teedy had sheeped some of my play, I had noticed something along those lines a couple of times, he was very quick to take up what i believed, not to say that makes him scummy but i had noticed it.

[Retro Red]

As far as the "I didn't say this, if you read back on my comment what i said was the following: 'If Ron flips scum, Bristep must be town - If Bristep flips scum Ron must be town' whilst giving the possibility of it being town on town but that my gut was not to believe such. " It's definitely tried and tested scum play, I know because I've done it myself when 2 polarising town players have such a large set to early on.

 

If I had said 'If one flips town, the other must be scum' i'd understand your point but that is not what i said and if you'd like to read back to find it you'll see that it isn't.

However, my wording on the point of your roleclaim was bad, that said I end the post with 'Ive no reason to distrust your claim' - I wasn't trying to paint that fact you were lying.

 

Something you did mention in your response to dazz's post was the idea that Teedy had sheeped some of my play, I had noticed something along those lines a couple of times, he was very quick to take up what i believed, not to say that makes him scummy but i had noticed it.

 

You misunderstand, I wanted Dazz to give some opinion on Teedy other than his one line "Chris B - I like your view on Teedy" then voting for him which I saw as Dazz sheeping you, rather than Teedy sheeping you.

 

As far as the scum v town comment, you can explain it how you like, but how I read it boiled down to "I think one of them has to be scum, I guess it could be town v town but I can't see it" which IS promoting the idea that we can't *both* be town.

[Ron Simmons]

I really think we should push a lynch tonight guys, otherwise I can see a last minute vote blitz happening again. Considering there's a kill that can happen at any point resetting the vote, and also that weird vote reset that happened last lynch - what if it happens again? It might be timed, it might be an action. But the variables suggest to me we should make a push to do something tonight to give us time to recover if need be.

[unfitfinlay]

I've missed a lot, so let me summarise where I am.

 

1) It's obvious now that there are two different Scum factions, or so I believe. The Triads (Evil people), and some other Scum faction. What the implications of this are, I don't know. Is it the day-kill that one Scum has, and a night kill that the other has? Or can they both whack at any time, leaving us in limbo?

 

Why is "obvious" that there's two different groups Dazz?

 

2) Ron Simmons, I am still slightly suspcious of you. There's something about you that just doesn't say town to me. I've not been about, and nor have you really, but, it seems that the suspicions towards you just won't shake. And surely that's not a good thing at all? I do however agree with you pushing for a vote, but, rather than rushing a vote, we should really consider it, because, even if the vote does get blitzed (Which could have been a one time deal only), we've gotta be sure we're lynching the right people.

 

I don't like this at all. If you think there's two different scum groups then it's completely natural to think that Ron, who claims he killed Kenny, is scum. So why pussy foot around it with the "There's something about you that just doesn't say town to me". Feels like you're subtely trying to push suspicion on Ron without actually committing to it.

 

3) RE: Bristep. I'm not sure I believe his bulletproof claim, likewise, I don't think he's scum. I'm confused by Bristep at this time, and before the end of the day phase I'll have a good little peruse into his interactions in this game to get an idea of what exactly I think of him.

 

Same thing here. You say you don't believe his claim but don't think he's scum. If you think he's lying then why don't you suspect him? Town have no reason to lie after all.

[Ron Simmons]

MOD REQUEST: Vote Count

[Dan Williams]

I'm concerned with Dazz's post saying that he almost definitively thinks there is 2 scum groups in play, surely the only way to know is if you are scum and kenny wasn't on your team. Could you please explain how you came to this theory for it to be so deffinite to you? and for now until you provide a good enough answer

 

FOS Dazz

[Retro Red]

Dazz @ 2.47pm - "@Seph

 

What would you like to hear about my case? Question me, and I'll gladly answer"

 

Me @ 2.49pm - "Dazz : Nice post, but it looks forced. What are your thoughts on Chris Stone? Teedy Kay (other than sheeping Chris's opinion.)? Snake? Dan? Seph? Finlay?"

 

No answers are forthcoming 7 hours later, despite his promise to be glad to answer questions only 2 minutes prior.

 

Votecount is Snake (1) Dazz (1) Teedy (2)

 

And now VOTE Dazz

 

It's Snake (1) Dazz (2) Teedy (2)

[Carbomb]

The "I'll Do The Votecounts, Thank You Very Much Mr. Bristep" Votecount

 

Snake Plissken (1)(L-5) - unfitfinlay

Dazz (2)(L-4) - Ron Simmons, bristep123

Teedy Kay (2)(L-4) - Chris B, Dazz

 

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch. Night Phase begins Friday, 17th June, 23:59.

[Chris_Stone]

I was wary of Dazz because I felt in the IC thread last game he was a little over-eager. I thought it would be worthwhile to press him and get some discussion going. I probably was a little clumsy in how I did it. Certainly my intention wasn't to out a vig, if we have one. If it was a vig though, taking a shot so early was anti-town play. That doesn't mean he deserves to die, but he needs to be a lot more careful if he has another shot to take. If he's an SK, well, we'll hopefully get more of a read tomorrow. Also, Ron said I was an "experienced" player. Bollocks. I replaced into one game and got killed that night. Last game was my first proper one. I'm far from "experienced." Anyway, unFOS Dazz. We'll see what happens kill-wise overnight and tomorrow and take things from there as far as our daykiller problem goes.

 

A lot of the suspicion on Kenny centred around his argument against Dazz, essentially the 'unexperienced, trigger happy vig' case but it was never likely to take off and I believe Kenny knew that and could have believed that this would create distance if either of them were to flip. Kenny certainly laid down his arms quite quickly and went for me afterwards. Then we have more recent play by Dazz in which his arguments have been fairly weak and to put an exclamaition on some of it:

 

Why shouldn't you vote for me? I'm Town. There'd be no benefit to voting for me unless you were Scum looking to eliminate the Townies. Plain and simple.

I know you say it wont *benefit* us, and in that sense you could make a case, but it's flawed, votes can and do tell us things even if they're on other town members. so to say 'Unless you were scum looking to eliminate the townies' isn't good here. It's essentially saying: 'Anyone who votes for me is scummy' but as i say, the word 'benefit' changes it slightly i'll give you your due on that.

 

Anyway, moving on, As I said, I'm town. There's no benefit to lynching me, and, I have no special ability at this time. So, pure vanilla here, looking to eliminate any of the scum elements that are in this game.

Re hammering that point AND claiming vanilla, in other words: No reason to lynch me, no reason to night kill me! You may aswell be bullet proof with Bristep for all the targetting you're likely to get come your way.

 

In this same post Dazz mentions not using the newness to the game as an argument and apologises for it.. but then we have this:

 

Also, Ron, I respect the FOS you've fired at me, but, I hope the above clarifies my standpoint. OR are you just trying, like someone else already has, to make me an easy target due to my nieveity?

It's essentially the same thing... and he managed to incorporate his previous idea of 'anyone who votes for me is scum' and painting Ron with the same brush as kenny (Kenny obviously went for a similar yet very different argument on dazz)

 

Finlay has laid out the issue with Dazz's most recent post nicely, so no need for me to do that.

 

What do i personally get from looking at this?

 

I see a situation where Kenny pushed on Dazz for something that would be a non reason, he managed to make himself look scummy on a wagon he knew wouldn't go anywhere and i can only assume he had hoped that his play wouldn't be seen as scummy but people would simply disagree. He switches his vote with little reasoning and goes after somebody else. We then have some pretty sketchy play from Dazz and enough contradictions to believe he's possibly lying or at least that he's protecting himself from fall out if one of his suspects returns a town verdict. I don't even need to mention the roleclaim again and why that hurts us, it's well documented.

 

Respond or swing Dazz.

 

FoS Dazz - De ja vu?

[Chris_Stone]

ebwop: I seem to have lost my case on Teedy on why i suspected him... I'll go rediscover that later too <.<

[Teedy Kay]

I have 16 minutes to write this, writing this cacky intro is taking up time so I better get on with it

 

Firstly, apologies folks, sincerly it's tosh play to blame outside stuff for not playing so I'll not make excuses there

 

Secondly, an appraisal of my posts at the start of the day phase

 

Just to highlight to some who have wondered:

 

Ron actually had a perfect chance to 'confirm' his vig claims with a slight bit of bread crumbing of his kill. I would have done this.

 

Alas he didn't it seems, so he still is not 100% confirmed in my eyes, especially as Kenny looked a good shout for scum too, someone else could have engineered that kill, and we shouldn't get away from that fact. Highlighting it, I do not feel is an act of scum, it is an act of making sure we remember that at this juncture Ron is still not 100% confirmed.

 

With this in mind:

 

Teedy Kay - A game this early won't have much from Brownie. This is the argument in favour of a serial killer or day mafia kill. As a result, post 191 is utter bollocks. Post 342 - totally redundant logic. Stating the absolutely bleeding obvious. Pushing massively on Ron. If Ron is a vig, this needs to be worked out. Scum 100% want rid of him. Also pushing on the breadcrumbing, which is a bit shitty. Bad logic re: Ron not targeting him overnigh

 

Post 191

How so is it 'bollocks', something triggered Brownie's death, shouldn't we go back and review that? No one did, until I went back and reviewed every post. Surely that is the Town's bread and butter, a Town member was struck down, we have to actually investigate that death

 

Post 342

Redundant logic? Eh?

IF 2 folks go V/LA, and there is enough Scum members, if that power was the scums they could manufacture it that if one of their cast was about to be lynched, that by resetting the power a no lynch would take place due to the knowledge Town wouldn't actually be there to vote.

 

This would only be redundant logic if we KNOW that that power was a Town power, so to claim it is can mean 2 things in my opinion.

 

One question before I HAVE to go,

 

Seph, can you explain why your presence in this game has been fleeting compared to your first two? Serious question buddy.

 

I hope to review more later on, seeing as it's weekend time, but here's one thing I will say

 

Chris Stone, Ron, Bristep and unfitfinlay are Town in my eyes, not confirmed, but their style of play is that of someone scum hunting, I'm more than happy with all of them.