bobbins Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 As has been pointed out already Bobbins, Guida stopped his last three opponents, so he's hardly got a reputation as a human blanket wrestler. Because results tell the full story.  To be fair, Matt Hughes is a bad example to use for the 'wrestlers who lay and pray/not inflicting damage' argument. Like him or not Hughes was never a blanket. Look back at his career, the guy has a ton of submissions/TKOs with finishes over GSP, BJ Penn, Royce, Trigg twice and even these days when he's supposed to be over the hill he's tapping BJJ blackbelts like Ricardo Almeida. On Sherk, around the time of his title run he was overwhelming guys with wrestling but he was relentless with ground and pound, constantly dropping elbows and punches. He went to decisions I think mainly because he lacked the power in his strikes and the guys he was fighting (Franca in particular were known for being tough to finish). Yeah I know Hughes and Sherk always inflicted damage during their dominant periods, I was just comparing Guida as a guy who uses wrestling and little else, and has shitty stand-up (guys I end up hating). He's like a modern-day version of those guys, but now everyone's better at avoiding damage off their backs, it just leads to stalemates rather than G&P.  From the Penn fight on he's been the total opposite of lay and pray on has gone too far the opposite way. He seemed to think he was Manny fuckin Pacquiao for a while totally neglecting his wrestling and tried to box every fight with his T-Rex arms to try and please the 'Just Bleed' fans. And from being so dominant he's now pretty much off the radar and I honestly think aside from his incactivity, a lot of that is down to him trying to change from the style which got him to the title in the first place. I don't know, I think the Griffin fight was definitely him trying to show he wasn't one-dimensional, but the Dunham and Edgar fights was just down to him not knowing what tactics to use rather than trying to please the Just Bleed people. He certainly tried to stifle Dunham with blanket power once he realised how outmatched he was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted June 9, 2011 Author Share Posted June 9, 2011 Because results tell the full story. When it comes to getting wins via stoppage in the UFC, it does actually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members wandshogun09 Posted June 9, 2011 Paid Members Share Posted June 9, 2011 I don't know, I think the Griffin fight was definitely him trying to show he wasn't one-dimensional, but the Dunham and Edgar fights was just down to him not knowing what tactics to use rather than trying to please the Just Bleed people. He certainly tried to stifle Dunham with blanket power once he realised how outmatched he was. Â Yeah fair point, I wasn't really counting the Dunham fight I was pleased to see him kinda playing to his strengths again in that one. And that proved he could still have a great fight without trying to have a war. Â The Griffin fight is definitely one he probably could've won easier if he'd stuck to wrestling. Even though Griffin's a good wrestler Sherk would be too strong imo. Instead he decided to stand and left it dangerously close. It was a good fight but silly tactics on his part I thought. I actually had Griffin winning that fight. Â The Edgar fight I thought he'd do what Maynard did vs Edgar the first time but again he stood with him even though Frankie clearly had better boxing. What frustrated me was in the last round Sherk went for a takedown and got it fairly easy. As good as Edgar is I think Sherk could've done much better/if not beat him if he'd gone that route from the off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members wandshogun09 Posted June 9, 2011 Paid Members Share Posted June 9, 2011 As has been pointed out already Bobbins, Guida stopped his last three opponents, so he's hardly got a reputation as a human blanket wrestler. Because results tell the full story. Â The only one that's kinda misleading really is the Dos Anjos fight where he tapped because of the broken jaw. If people just see that on his record they might think he actually bettered the superior submission fighter at his own game but it was an injury. Saying that it's Guida who broke his jaw with a punch so he caused the technical submission. It's not like Dos Anjos came into the fight hurt and Guida got lucky. Â The Gugerty and Gomi subs were good finishes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Supremo Posted June 9, 2011 Paid Members Share Posted June 9, 2011 Anyway, my point was that, regardless of whether it's the main event that sells the show or the card as a whole, Clay Guida challenging for the belt will undoubtedly draw more than anyone else challenging for it. He's the biggest star in that division by far. I dunno, Guida seems like the type of guy that pops the crowd but doesn't draw. I guess we'll have to wait and see, but I genuinely think he'd surprise us as a pay per view headliner. Fighting so often on Spike TV he's had more national exposure than most in the company, he's had some cracking fights seen by a lot of eyeballs and the reactions he gets live have in the past been compared to that of true stars of the sport. I'd be interested in going back and seeing what type of draw he's been in terms of TV ratings. Â But yeah, regardless, he's still a much bigger star than anyone else in the division, and as such would almost certainly draw more based on that alone. Of the casual fans I usually watch UFC pay per views with, I'd be shocked if many of them could even pick Jim Miller out of a line-up, whereas everyone knows and likes Guida. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Egg Shen Posted June 9, 2011 Paid Members Share Posted June 9, 2011 But yeah, regardless, he's still a much bigger star than anyone else in the division, and as such would almost certainly draw more based on that alone. Of the casual fans I usually watch UFC pay per views with, I'd be shocked if many of them could even pick Jim Miller out of a line-up, whereas everyone knows and likes Guida. Â good point, people are shitting all over Guida here but it's true that he's probably the most popular 155'er in the UFC currently. I think the UFC would be stupid not to use Guida's good run to it's advantage and get Clay into a title shot. Jim Miller is similar to Jon Fitch in that he's all business. It sucks that it holds him back but it does. Â Ive got friends who are kind of fringe MMA fans and they all love Clay Guida, it's the persona, the ring walk, the hair...people don't forget it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members wandshogun09 Posted June 9, 2011 Paid Members Share Posted June 9, 2011 Yeah its crazy how popular Guida is really. Even when he wasn't on a good run and was losing every 2nd or 3rd fight he was getting some of the loudest reactions at weigh ins and stuff. He's definitely got a strong following. Dunno how that would translate in PPV buys but he's certainly gotta be on of the most popular non current main event guys in the company. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted June 9, 2011 Author Share Posted June 9, 2011 Personally, I don't see Guida having much luck against either Maynard or Edgar. Â He won't be able to outwrestle Maynard, and won't be able to match him on the feet I don't think, whilst he'll get blown away by Edgar on the feet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members wandshogun09 Posted June 9, 2011 Paid Members Share Posted June 9, 2011 Yeah me too. They're both better than him on the feet, Edgar would be too quick and Maynard has more power. And both would at least be able to make it hard for him to get takedowns and they could possibly take him down. Â I think both would be good fights though. Especially Edgar vs Guida. And losses seem to make Clay more popular so it wouldn't harm him too much I dont think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shane O' Mac Version 2 Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 But yeah, regardless, he's still a much bigger star than anyone else in the division, and as such would almost certainly draw more based on that alone. Of the casual fans I usually watch UFC pay per views with, I'd be shocked if many of them could even pick Jim Miller out of a line-up, whereas everyone knows and likes Guida. Â good point, people are shitting all over Guida here but it's true that he's probably the most popular 155'er in the UFC currently. I think the UFC would be stupid not to use Guida's good run to it's advantage and get Clay into a title shot. Jim Miller is similar to Jon Fitch in that he's all business. It sucks that it holds him back but it does. Â Ive got friends who are kind of fringe MMA fans and they all love Clay Guida, it's the persona, the ring walk, the hair...people don't forget it. The only similarities I see between Miller and Fitch are that they've both had significant winning streaks without a title shot. I'm not quite sure what you mean when you say both are "all business"? If you mean in terms of seeming like a pretty normal, grounded dude, unlike Guida, then that describes 95% of the UFC roster. There's a select few that have the big personalities, and they're not the only ones who draw PPV's. GSP is probably the most devoid of personality out of any fighter I've seen in combat sports, yet people love him the world over for his skills. Â Miller is actually an exciting fighter who brings a varied attack every time, always trying to finish, look at his last battle with Kamal Shalorus. Guys like Fitch who are "all business" are disliked because they just go to win and couldn't give a damn how they do it, they don't see pleasing fans as being important. I was in the arena for the Penn vs Fitch fight, people were leaving the arena in disgust before the final bell had gone, hence to the, umm, effectiveness of Fitch's attack. I had immense satisfaction in seeing a draw that night, Penn tried to attack and finish, Fitch didn't. A lot of the time in MMA it's hard to have a fight come to a decision without some argument occuring, as evidenced by this topic. Very little room for argument when someone is finished in the cage, and it usually leaves us more satisfied. This isn't pro wrestling. Action matters in MMA. Sure, personalities can help promote a fight sometimes, but after an event, people talk about how good the fights were, not how cool Clay Guida's hair is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbins Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 Because results tell the full story. When it comes to getting wins via stoppage in the UFC, it does actually. But I'm not talking about getting stoppages, so good work on that strawman. Plenty of reasons why negative, defensive fighters can get stoppages. Broken jaw like Dos Anjos, or getting frustrated and desperate when they've been stifled for most of the fight. Gugerty looked like he had had enough. Gomi not renowned for his patience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted June 9, 2011 Author Share Posted June 9, 2011 But I'm not talking about getting stoppages, so good work on that strawman. Plenty of reasons why negative, defensive fighters can get stoppages. Broken jaw like Dos Anjos, or getting frustrated and desperate when they've been stifled for most of the fight. Gugerty looked like he had had enough. Gomi not renowned for his patience. Winning a fight, especially via submission or KO is the ultimate goal of any fighter stepping into the cage though, isn't it? What more can you ask of the fighter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Egg Shen Posted June 9, 2011 Paid Members Share Posted June 9, 2011 the similarity between Miller & Fitch is in personality, neither are shit talkers and they just go about their business in the cage. Miller's win-streak has been very similar to Fitch's initial run, its kinda gone under the radar with many of their fights still being kept on the prelims. Jim Miller wasn't really talked about being in title contention really until the Shalorous fight...and despite that run Miller (arguably) hasn't got a win over a top 10 guy yet, and he's known to win a few decisions himself. Â If Jim Miller beats Ben Henderson i don't think anyone can argue that he's next in line, but if Henderson beats Miller (which is what i'm hoping for), i think Clay Guida is the next title challenger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shane O' Mac Version 2 Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 But I'm not talking about getting stoppages, so good work on that strawman. Plenty of reasons why negative, defensive fighters can get stoppages. Broken jaw like Dos Anjos, or getting frustrated and desperate when they've been stifled for most of the fight. Gugerty looked like he had had enough. Gomi not renowned for his patience. Winning a fight, especially via submission or KO is the ultimate goal of any fighter stepping into the cage though, isn't it? What more can you ask of the fighter? The argument isn't whether the fighters are achieving their goals, or about what we expect of them. It's simply about whether what we deem what we watch is entertaining, which is totally subjective and dependent on a large number of factors. Finishes help immensely with that, but it's still not the be-all, end-all. It's like if we watch a shit movie, but then the ending's pretty cool. Or the movie's okay but has a flat ending. Personally, I'd rather take a blockbuster with many plot-turns, lots of action and an explosive ending. I want to list movie examples, but then again all our movie tastes will be different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted June 9, 2011 Author Share Posted June 9, 2011 The argument isn't whether the fighters are achieving their goals, or about what we expect of them. It's simply about whether what we deem what we watch is entertaining, which is totally subjective and dependent on a large number of factors. That's all well & good, but when your competing at the top end of the UFC, where competition is tough you can't always entertain. Your priority, like any other sportsman, is to win and to collect your pay. If you win your fights, and manage to finish your opponent, then you're on top of your game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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