Paid Members wandshogun09 Posted January 27, 2013 Paid Members Share Posted January 27, 2013 Oh yeah you can't go exclusively on wins and losses because as you say, shite judging has a part to play in some cases sadly. That's not what I'm saying. But rankings should be based on fights that have happened, wins and losses help but I'm saying it should be based on performances. Â Of course with any MMA rankings there will be some degree of guesswork but surely basing it on what we've actually seen is a better gauge than just personal opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members wandshogun09 Posted January 27, 2013 Paid Members Share Posted January 27, 2013 So you won't consider him, say, top five, until he makes the jump to the UFC? Â I honestly don't know. That's what I'm saying. Ranking MMA fighters is such a difficult task, I don't know where or how you rank him or put a number next to his name. Â He's unbeaten, he's good but he's not fought the same level of really tough match ups a fighter like say, Condit or Kampmann have. Â This is why I avoided putting a number rank on him. There's too many different variables and factors to definitively say he is or isn't top 5, top 3 etc. How do you decide he's higher than Fitch or Koscheck or Condit etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimufctna24 Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 With Askren though, what can we judge from what we have actually seen. Â Not just if Askren can beat the top-flight wrestlers but the other way round also. If there is a relative degree of debate to have, I do not think its irrational for people to rank Askren high. In all honesty despite the level in the UFC being a great deal higher, there is the wild card that Askren has better wrestling credentials that forces the debate from both sides. Its not just can Askren beat the UFC elite?, its also can the UFC elite hang with Askren? Â I agree on it being about performances, but with Askren its how he has beaten the fighters he has beat, not just who they are. I remember people elsewhere saying the WEC guard could not be ranked highly until they got into the UFC, they got it and now I rank two of their mainstays as Top 5 (Bendo and the guy who won last night) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 As Wand said, I don't usually consider guys outwith the UFC to be top five (in my opinion), but Askren is definately the exception. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members wandshogun09 Posted January 27, 2013 Paid Members Share Posted January 27, 2013 I never said he shouldn't be rated highly. We've seen enough to say he's one of the top guys at 170. My point is that how do you decide to rank him top 3 when he hasn't even faced a really good wrestler yet? If Chael faced only strikers and wrestlers we wouldn't know about his triangle habit. His kryptonite has always been slick submission artists. Who's to say how Askren would do if he faced a guy like Koscheck. Someone who might force him out of his comfort zone due to his own wrestling credentials. Â The WEC point is a good one but again, I'm not saying he couldn't do well in the UFC or that he's not a top WW. Â Jim says it's not who he beat but how that matters - I disagree. Who you beat is surely more important. Â GSP is a pound for pound great. Hasn't finished anyone since 2009 but has beat the best for years. Melvin Manhoef has one of the best finish ratios and highlight reels in MMA. He beat his opponents more spectacularly than GSP. But the difference is who they beat. Level of opposition matters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimufctna24 Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 (edited) I am not basing it on finishes or anything and who you beat does matter I agree. It is more the domination aspect of it all. Like I said, Askren is a wrestling beast, I like Nick Diaz a great deal but his game is based around great striking and slick submissions, a game that may be exploited in the UFC WW weight-class. Â Askren does not have that worry. I think Askren would fair well against a Koscheck, that is what I mean by personal opinion. We can not determine that either way yet, so it is going to come down to a individual weighing up pros and cons. With Diaz, he does not match up well on paper in my opinion with the top UFC fighters, with Askren he does. Its a style thing as well as a talent thing. Â I just had a chat with a friend on Facebook about Machida beating Bader, I rate that performance due to the immense skills showcased not the guy he faced, Machida showed amazing foot-speed, technique and accuracy. I believe on that night no one at 205lbs other than Jones and Mo could deal with him. Its the same logic for Askren with me, I do not think many top 170'ers in the UFC could deal with what he brings to the table. This can work both ways, but with Askren's better credentials I am not sure Hendricks or Ellenberger could deal being on their backs with Askren's GnP. Â The only real thing I cannot argue is that Askren has not yet been tested in certain areas. If you want to argue and judge him on not facing another wrestler or a Maia who could submit him, fair enough. But I think you could do that with a lot of fighters who are actually in the UFC, like has Anderson faced a karate guy like Machida? Â To be honest I am judging it on watching his fight last Thursday and what I have heard elsewhere, but as of now I am very impressed and could see him being top 5. Edited January 27, 2013 by jimufctna24 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members wandshogun09 Posted January 27, 2013 Paid Members Share Posted January 27, 2013 Fair enough. Goes to prove my point though, talk of MMA rankings is tricky. There's so many ways you can look at it and none are necessarily wrong. We could go on for hours like this and both be right in different ways. Sod it. Â I'll leave it with this - if Askren's performance the other night is a sign of things to come he might well make a fan out of me yet. Â I think it's great that him and Anthony Pettis train together. They are both strong at each others weaker areas so It can only benefit them both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimufctna24 Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 Fair enough. Goes to prove my point though, talk of MMA rankings is tricky. There's so many ways you can look at it and none are necessarily wrong. We could go on for hours like this and both be right in different ways. Sod it. Â Agreed, all subjective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Egg Shen Posted January 29, 2013 Author Paid Members Share Posted January 29, 2013 Bellator 87 coming up Thursday: Â Main Card (on Spike TV): -David Rickels (11-1) vs. Lloyd Woodard (12-2) -Guillaume DeLorenzi (10-1) vs. Patricky Pitbull (10-4) -Will Brooks (8-0) vs. Ricardo Tirloni (15-3) -Tiger Sarnavskiy (21-1) vs. Thiago Michel (11-3) Â Preliminary Card (on Spike.com): -Saad Awad (12-4) vs. Jason Fischer (5-1) -Sam Quito (11-4) vs. Ben Lagman (7-2) -J.P. Reese (8-4) vs. David Shepherd (5-2) -Cody Stamann (2-0) vs. Justin Houghton (5-2) -Jason Fish (2-0) vs. Karl Etherington (7-0) -John Schulz (4-0) vs. Amir Killah (10-5) -Nick Kirk (9-1) vs. Tony Zelinski (3-2) Â Main card is the Lightweight Quarterfinals. Standard mix of Bellator veterans and newcomers, Woodard/Rickels could be insane, always great to see a Pitbull in there and the debut of Will Brooks who looked like a million bucks in Japan on New Years Eve. Also interested to see how Tiger bounces back after failing to live up to the hype last season. Â Debut of Karl Etherington on the undercard too, excited for that now after he got highlighted here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members wandshogun09 Posted January 29, 2013 Paid Members Share Posted January 29, 2013 Woodard vs Rickels is the one I'm most looking forward to here. I'm a fan of the Pitbull brothers as well so I'm looking forward to that too, and seeing how Brooks looks in his debut. Looks a good card. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 We're certainly not at a loss for quality MMA these days, are we? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Egg Shen Posted January 30, 2013 Author Paid Members Share Posted January 30, 2013 No we're not, i fucking loves it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Carbomb Posted January 30, 2013 Paid Members Share Posted January 30, 2013 Hell, even I'm getting into it, and I only ever watched the big marquee matches like Rogers/Fedor or Lesnar/Couture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Egg Shen Posted January 30, 2013 Author Paid Members Share Posted January 30, 2013 Noooooo, Pitbull is out injured. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Carbomb Posted January 30, 2013 Paid Members Share Posted January 30, 2013 Noooooo, Pitbull is out injured. Â He's a shit rapper anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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