Loki Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 Except I haven't, I haven't moved from "There is consent or there isn't" and nor will I. There are no degrees here, it IS black and white. Admittedly that quote was taken in regards to one night stands and all that and I didn't make that clear, hence the discussion afterwards which you initially missed by the looks of it.  Sorry to be pedantic, but I didn't miss the posts, I read this:  However, as you say, if it's a given through years of understanding then of course its no problem  I can imagine that'd be an easy excuse for a husband to give "We always have sex on a Saturday morning, it's a given through years of understanding".  He might assume consent, but that's not consent is it. Or is it? That's my entire point, it's not black and white. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Houchen Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 I also said that if he started his usual routine and his wife wasn't up for it (or vice versa) then the consent it withdrawn. It is black and white. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loki Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 Can you retrospectively withdraw consent Keith, or mitigated by circumstance? I'm curious. It's been a point tested in the courts recently, as I mentioned earlier, where the intoxication of the individual was said to have negated consent, but the court rejected it. Â I'd say a big part of the problem as regards applying this in the UK is that the idea of a man or woman getting absolutely blotto and ending up in bed (or more likely, a back alley) with another drunken stranger they've just met seems to be ingrained into our culture - in many cases, it's the first courtship ritual young people here learn. The nightclub industry thrives on it, and the Magaluf/Kavos/generic horrible 18-30 type resort holiday industry is built on it, not to mention the way drunken young women having sex with predatory men is typically portrayed as comedic in 'constructed reality' shows such as Geordie Shore. I agree with everyone who's said that there needs to be a sensible debate on this issue, but there are also whole aspects of the culture - not least the media - that need to change if the idea of verbally asking for explicit consent before sex is to become the norm. Â I agree with that but it's an ofshoot issue from the larger issue that it is now entirely socially acceptable, in some social circles, to be absolutely wasted, indeed seen as a badge of honour. The violence, rape and so on spirals from that, IMO. The instances of rape on islands like Ibiza against British women are pretty high, due to the fact that (WHILST IN NO WAY THE VICTIM'S FAULT) there is a perception of British women as being easy targets due to their rampant drunkenness to an extent not favoured by other nationalities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Houchen Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 Can you retrospectively withdraw consent Keith, or mitigated by circumstance? I was actually discussing this with Mrs Houchen last night (not for my own personal means, obviously) and she was saying what a minefield it is. There is everything from regret to being uninformed/being taken advantage of. So basically, I don't know! Â We cannot ever move away from innocent until proven guilty, ever. That's why convictions are so low as most cases (that even get to trial and aren't bumped down to sexual assault to have more chance of conviction) is a matter of one persons word against another. Â I think covers the different types and cases that have to be considered rather well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loki Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 Cheers, I'll take a read. Â Would you agree that in the long-term, changing societal norms is actually an easier way of reducing rape than increasing conviction rates? Cure the problem, rather than punish the crime type thing? Not suggesting it's not important to do both, btw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Houchen Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 (edited) Would you agree that in the long-term, changing societal norms is actually an easier way of reducing rape than increasing conviction rates? Cure the problem, rather than punish the crime type thing? Not suggesting it's not important to do both, btw. Absolutely. The Slutwalk movement highlighted how much victim blaming still goes on, the "She was asking for it" mentality still exists and, like racism, a lot of people don't realise they are doing it. I've talked to many people who have equated a passed out scantily dressed girl to leaving a front window open, victim blaming 101. Â EDIT - Forgot to mention how male rape is possibly more unreported due to societal norms. Â (By the way, that link was to Peter Wyngarde's "Rape" song, I will get some proper info though!) Edited August 23, 2012 by Keith Houchen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators PowerButchi Posted August 23, 2012 Moderators Share Posted August 23, 2012 That is indeed a great song. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Bifkin Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators PowerButchi Posted August 23, 2012 Moderators Share Posted August 23, 2012 Still the best Jizzface ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Bifkin Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 Is it rape to have wanked off to that scene from The Accused? Cos if it is, lock me up and throw away the key! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Houchen Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 I always preferred the potting shed scene in Scum, far more tender. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators PowerButchi Posted August 23, 2012 Moderators Share Posted August 23, 2012 The one in Straw Dogs was best for a wank, at least until Raper #2 gets amongst it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Chest Rockwell Posted August 23, 2012 Moderators Share Posted August 23, 2012 I think covers the different types and cases that have to be considered rather well. Â Â This song is amazing, and it was a nice swerve how it turned out to be more racist than sexist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Bifkin Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 Yeah, Susan George is clearly getting into it by the end. Does it still count as rape if she starts off objecting, but ends up loving it? Â It's a veritable minefield. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loki Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 It's retrospective implied consent, Guy. If a woman says no, but derives pleasure by the end, that means she must have wanted it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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