Smokin' Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 No Ali? No, he's not good enough. If he was a better batsman, you could pick him as a second spinner but he's poor against the short ball and has shown weakness against spin, so there's not enough of an upside with his batting to warrant keeping him in the team. His bowling is the reason he is in the team, however, he's nothing more than a part time spinner. At county level, he has an average of nearly 40, which is indicative of his effectiveness as a bowler so I don't see a long term role for him unless his batting significantly improves. 18 wickets for England so far is impressive but numbers can be deceptive and in the case of Moeen, most of those wickets have come from poor batting rather than good bowling. There are a few good all-rounder options for England at the moment with Stokes, Woakes, Jordan, Bresnan to name four.. All but Jordan are more effective at county level and when playing for England, have all looked like better all-rounders. If we are going to go with an all-rounder, which I think we should, it should be a fast bowler and then bring in a natural spinner, someone like Riley, Kerrigan, Briggs or the steady Tredwell, to provide spin. A balance like this would be better for England in the long run, I think. What you neglect to mention in this post is that, yes, his career average is over 40. But his average in the last two seasons is at least 10 runs lower than that. So based on form, he's actually a very good pick for England. The fact is that I doubted whether he could do the job as a front line spinner - and he has. There's no tougher test than playing India on non-turning surfaces. Not only has he taken wickets, but he's bowled at a good economy rate as well. He could not have done any better. His next stop will be the West Indies in April, and he'll get some lovely turning pitches over there to boost his confidence with before the Aussies come over. As for your other suggestions for spinners, Riley's not ready yet. Kerrigan will never be ready in my opinion. Briggs is a one day bowler and not an especially effective one, while Tredwell's form has gone completely to pot in the last couple of seasons. So I don't think much of your alternatives. This is England. What we do is take talented young spinners and ruin them. By rights, Adil Rashid and Azeem Rafiq should be our front-line spinners by now - but the former barely bowls now and the latter barely plays. We have to make the best use of what we've got. Moeen's doing a fine job right now and deserves to be kept on and if his batting falls into place, a nice bonus. Well, that would be an accurate post if England had just beaten a side with Tendulkar, Sehwag, Ganguly, Dravid and Laxman in it but this current Indian side isn't deserving of any sort of positive reputation against spin. They are obviously struggling against it and have given their wickets away on many occasions during the test series. Moeen got a very good haul of wickets but he did so without bowling exceptionally well and when you compare his bowling skill to, say, Swann and Ajmal, his bowling is clearly inferior yet was still rewarded with wickets. He was unsuccessful until he raised his speed which, remarkably, baffled the Indian batsmen but is such a minor alteration enough to bowl out good quality opponents? No. I watched as much of the series as possible and I don't recall a single spell from Moeen where he looked unplayable, it was merely a case of the Indian batsman not knowing when to defend and when to attack. This India side are not a good team against spin bowling, particularly off spin, and when Moeen's wickets are reviewed, how many of those 19 were outstanding deliveries and how many were gifted to him? So, yes, there is a tougher test that playing the Indians. South Africa, Australia, Pakistan and Sri Lanka are all better against spin, and possibly New Zealand too. The fact Moeen averaged 60 against Sri Lanka a couple of months ago backs up that they are better against spin than this current Indian side, which seems to be living off the reputation of their brilliant predecessors. The last two test matches had about the most cowardly, pathetic batting displays you could ever want to see from a test match team, so I'd hate to tarnish the reputation of the past greats they had by making too many comparisons to this mess of a side they have now. I agree that there's no obvious alternative at the moment and Moeen won't be dropped, I just think that in the long term, we'd be better off backing a natural spinner rather than a part timer at county level, who was picked for his batting that is flawed. Moeen is not the best spinner in the country and that will be proven in time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Devon Malcolm Posted August 21, 2014 Author Paid Members Share Posted August 21, 2014 Firstly, I never said there was no obvious alternative to Moeen. In the post above yours I stated that I thought Gareth Batty would be worth a shout. All England need is an Ashley Giles type spinner who can bowl lots of overs and allow the seamers to rotate at the other end. The kind of job Paul Harris did for years for South Africa as well. Moeen has done enough in the series to suggest he COULD be that kind of bowler - if not then Batty or Panesar, should he overcome his problems, could still do a fine job. I also never said he was the best spinner in the country. In fact, who is? Not sure who you're addressing with that. This Indian side are not awful players of spin. I'm not having that at all. One bad series against one spinner does not lead me to any sort of similar conclusion. Anderson and Broad bowled so well that they saw Moeen as the bowler they could attack and they lost their wickets trying to over-attack him. It's called bowling as a team. How many times did Harris get Kevin Pietersen out because he didn't have anything to hit off Steyn or Morkel? Plenty. He bowled tidily and did the job asked. Did his figures flatter him a bit? Maybe. But to suggest it was all down to crap batting is ludicrous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fanny Pack Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Some of those are not failed names though. in tje test team Hick was never a front line spinner but he should have done more bowling - he could easily have done as good a job as Carl Hooper did for years for the West Indies. Such won a couple of tests for England, which wasn't bad considering he only played about a dozen. His average was low 30s as well. Udal came back in his late thirties and won a test in India for us but otherwise barely played enough to be warranted a failure. Batty should be the next spinner England call on because he's in great form for Surrey and is precisely the type of spinner we need. Tredwell played one test! Plus he became extremely reliable in ODIs. As for Kerrigan, he bowled in one test innings! Ok fair point with Hick but the other never played more than 20 tests because they couldnt nail a place down in the test team and therefore must be considered as failures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Devon Malcolm Posted August 22, 2014 Author Paid Members Share Posted August 22, 2014 Including Kerrigan and Tredwell, and also Udal who was never going to get more than 20 tests at his age? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twelve_grand Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 How nice to see Dernbach slapped around again this morning in the T20 semi-final. On spin bowlers Croft had something about him and there was a glimmer of an attack with him and Tufnell playing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Devon Malcolm Posted August 23, 2014 Author Paid Members Share Posted August 23, 2014 If Dernbach ever gets in another England squad then I'm putting a contract out on the selectors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators PowerButchi Posted August 23, 2014 Moderators Share Posted August 23, 2014 I always rated Gareth Batty, hence making him England's front line spinner on International Cricket Captain to great success. And that's just like real life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members gadge Posted August 23, 2014 Paid Members Share Posted August 23, 2014 Tredwell is in the squad for the ODI series against India starting on Monday, isn't he? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twelve_grand Posted August 24, 2014 Share Posted August 24, 2014 When Flintoff hit those two sixes - the greatest comeback since his last one was almost on. Got me thinking this morning how much cricket needs to be back on terrestrial television to build a future. I hope they bite the bullet and run something like a two week 'cities' Twenty20 in partnership with Channel 4. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members gadge Posted September 5, 2014 Paid Members Share Posted September 5, 2014 Shocking stuff today, as England almost scored 300 in an ODI - and that was enough to win one! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members tiger_rick Posted November 27, 2014 Paid Members Share Posted November 27, 2014 Phil Hughes died overnight. Such a sad situation. Being hit on the head by a delivery is so innocuous. Seeing a young man die in such circumstances is horrible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members gadge Posted December 27, 2014 Paid Members Share Posted December 27, 2014 Three Boxing Day Tests and the Big Bash all on Sky Sports - a good Christmas for live cricket. Especially as we don't have to watch England. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fanny Pack Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 AB de Villiers 149 off 44 balls (sixteen 6s) including a world record century off 31 balls was the best innings ive ever seen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Sergio Mendacious Posted April 10, 2015 Paid Members Share Posted April 10, 2015 It's tough living in a nation of heathens on a day like this. “… thank you for having me. It’s been absolutely marvellous. For 42 years I’ve loved every moment of it. And it’s been a privilege to go into everyone’s living room throughout that time. What’s even better is that it’s been a great deal of fun” Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members gadge Posted June 9, 2015 Paid Members Share Posted June 9, 2015 Between innings doesn't count as live discussion does it? England have just scored 408-9 in an ODI. Who would've predicted that? I'm still not sure we'll win, mind... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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