Boxing Thread

[David]

All very well saying that, David, and I don't expect you to change your opinion, but it was a different era back then, when racial tensions were at their absolute highest. Whites were at some of their worst excesses in the modern world at the time, and many young black Americans saw rejectionism as their only chance to take back control of their futures from the white establishment. There were plenty in the UK like that, as well. It's not a good outlook on life, and I would never adopt it, but to just say "he's an absolute disgrace", etc., demonstrates a lack of understanding and empathy for what people were going through at the time.

 

I agree his treatment of Frazier was awful, in light of the fact that the guy fought for his re-instatement, but "collaborators" have always been seen as worse than the enemy.

Whilst I agree with everything you say there regarding the difference in the times, none of that explains or excuses his behaviour.

[Loki]

If Frazier could forgive Ali, then I reckon even David might find it in his cold-man-of-Arran heart to. Without guys like Ali highlighting and fighting the in-built racism that pervaded American society, sport included, race relations would never have progressed, and that included challenging assumptions on black behaviour within that community.

[Carbomb]

Whilst I agree with everything you say there regarding the difference in the times, none of that explains or excuses his behaviour.

 

May not excuse it, but you'd have to have blinkers on not to think it explains it. Everything's got a reason for happening.

 

EDIT: I added a bit while you guys were replying to further elaborate.

Edited February 5, 2013 by Carbomb

[David]

If Frazier could forgive Ali, then I reckon even David might find it in his cold-man-of-Arran heart to. Without guys like Ali highlighting and fighting the in-built racism that pervaded American society, sport included, race relations would never have progressed, and that included challenging assumptions on black behaviour within that community.

Frazier may have publicly squashed the beef with Ali, but it was well known among his friends and family that the shit Ali came out with about him at the time hurt him really bad, and that he could never really forget or forgive it. Ali may have been fighting the good fight and all that, but Frazier was as proud a black man as you were likely to ever meet as well.

 

I understand where Ali came from as far as his religious views at the time, and his opposition to the Vietnam war, but Joe Frazier was a class act throughout his life, but for anyone to try and excuse or explain the way Ali treated both him and his family at the time isn't on.

 

An interesting point was made by boxing historian Randy Roberts, who said at the time of Joe's passing

[wandshogun09]

That Ali quote you posted Dave, is from Parkinson in the 70s. It was a harsh comment. I've never been a fan of that side of him and for all the good things he's done, he went too far with the race stuff at times. Especially in regards to Frazier who had a more traditional, hard upbringing typical of a lot of black people back then, than Ali himself did. The 'Uncle Tom' and gorilla taunts were particularly nasty.

 

But I see why Ali would hold certain views, like Carbomb said it was a different time. On the same Parkinson show as the quote you posted, Ali told a story of going to a restaurant after winning Olympic gold and he was turned away because they "didn't serve negros". You can see why things like that could build racial hostility in someone.

 

I honestly believe the way Ali mocked Frazier started off as Ali just trying to hype the fight, but he went way too far and became trapped in it in a way. He went past the point of return.

 

I don't agree with his views but I'll be sad when he's gone.

[David]

But I see why Ali would hold certain views, like Carbomb said it was a different time. On the same Parkinson show as the quote you posted, Ali told a story of going to a restaurant after winning Olympic gold and he was turned away because they "didn't serve negros". You can see why things like that could build racial hostility in someone.

And yet he never directed his anger or nasty comments at white people, as that historian said, he decided to go after a fellow black guy who helped him out when he was barred from boxing, and who actively petitioned to have him reinstated into the sport. A black guy who actually rose above the racial tension of the time, and was a complete gentleman throughout his life. He never stooped to the level of racist America at the time by responding in kind like Ali did, he simply showed that he was a class above all of it.

 

I understand the circumstances of that era, and as I've said, I agree with his stance on the likes of Vietnam, but none of that excuses how he acted towards Joe Frazier. He didn't apologise until it was way too late for it to have any effect on Frazier's life.

 

He was an arrogant, racist prick, and no amount of image rebuilding in recent years will change that for me. I also won't change my opinion when he eventually does pass away.

[Egg Shen]

considering i love reading about boxing history i do know little about Ali. I've seen loads of documentaries and things and of course it's easy to just stand by the opinion of the docmentary maker. I think Ali's legacy is seen throw rose-tinted specs and it's easy to see why, the mainstream press paint him as a bit of a god and most people latch on to that picture of the man, and this view will probably be ramped up further when he does pass.

 

But there's two sides to every story, ive seen the docs which show the other side of Ali and when watching them it's very easy to just flip your view but i like to stay very open minded about things, i need to do some more reading to give myself a better picture of the whole story because as of now i feel it would be wrong to pass judgement (although 99% of people do without knowing little if anything about the subject they claim to have an opinion on and it drives me fucking crazy).

 

It'll still be sad when he passes, there are fewer more iconic people left on the planet than Ali.

[Carbomb]

But I see why Ali would hold certain views, like Carbomb said it was a different time. On the same Parkinson show as the quote you posted, Ali told a story of going to a restaurant after winning Olympic gold and he was turned away because they "didn't serve negros". You can see why things like that could build racial hostility in someone.

And yet he never directed his anger or nasty comments at white people, as that historian said, he decided to go after a fellow black guy who helped him out when he was barred from boxing, and who actively petitioned to have him reinstated into the sport. A black guy who actually rose above the racial tension of the time, and was a complete gentleman throughout his life. He never stooped to the level of racist America at the time by responding in kind like Ali did, he simply showed that he was a class above all of it.

 

I understand the circumstances of that era, and as I've said, I agree with his stance on the likes of Vietnam, but none of that excuses how he acted towards Joe Frazier. He didn't apologise until it was way too late for it to have any effect on Frazier's life.

 

He was an arrogant, racist prick, and no amount of image rebuilding in recent years will change that for me. I also won't change my opinion when he eventually does pass away.

 

Who said he never directed his anger or comments at white people? Don't know what footage you were watching - the whole basis of his joining the NOI was the anger and resentment he felt. Referring to white people as "the devil" is not exactly complimentary either.

 

As to "stooping to the level of racist America" - all very well for someone living in the current era, where we're spoiled with a plethora of multi-culture narratives, to talk so blithely about "rising above it all". To a young, angry black man in the 60s, "rising above it all" looked like "selling out" and "knuckling under". Ali was nowhere near the only black man during that period to feel that way, so to refuse to understand the basis of why the entire movement came about just seems wilful.

[David]

Who said he never directed his anger or comments at white people?

Professor Randy Roberts, a specialist in recent U.S. history, U.S. sports history, and the history of popular culture. He said;

 

[Carbomb]

Yeah, I don't need a historian telling me what my own eyes saw and ears heard. Or does this guy have the magical ability to erase video and audio footage's historical significance? That statement of his is bollocks.

 

As to what he did to Frazier - I never denied what he did was shit. But you're painting him as an all-out bastard, which is what I take issue with. There's a massive difference between being nice and being good; Ali at one point was more famous for his politics than his boxing and was beloved by millions throughout the world, because of what he represented.

 

Also - Ali was selling the fight against Frazier. Horrible way to do it, but that's what he was doing. The worst thing he did was to not tell Frazier he was doing it.

Edited February 5, 2013 by Carbomb

[David]

Yeah, I don't need a historian telling me what my own eyes saw and ears heard. Or does this guy have the magical ability to erase video and audio footage's historical significance? That statement of his is bollocks.

That's your choice. I consider him more qualified to address the situation that either you or me.

 

As to what he did to Frazier - I never denied what he did was shit. But you're painting him as an all-out bastard, which is what I take issue with. There's a massive difference between being nice and being good; Ali at one point was more famous for his politics than his boxing and was beloved by millions throughout the world, because of what he represented.

No, you never denied it, but it's always glossed over whenever the legacy of Ali is discussed. His treatment of Frazier is always explained away by various excuses. There was no excuse for it.

 

Also - Ali was selling the fight against Frazier. Horrible way to do it, but that's what he was doing. The worst thing he did was to not tell Frazier he was doing it.

And there's excuse #1. A lot of shit, of course, but if it explains away the possibility that Ali was a nasty, racist prick at that time then I guess it'll do, eh?

 

I consider Ali to be a smart man. He would have known fine well, especially at that time in the US, that you don't "sell a fight" using the tactics he did. For a man who spoke openly and widely about how racism had affected him throughout his life to use such tactics to sell a fight is ridiculous.

 

It's been said many times that his condition in later life was the reason why he was never properly pulled up for what he did, and I agree.

 

As I said earlier, I don't wish death on anyone, and I hope he recovers. I have zero respect for him as a person though, even if I do respect his boxing ability.

[Carbomb]

Yeah, I don't need a historian telling me what my own eyes saw and ears heard. Or does this guy have the magical ability to erase video and audio footage's historical significance? That statement of his is bollocks.

That's your choice. I consider him more qualified to address the situation that either you or me.

Yeah. I should probably speak to a dietician to try and find out what I ate for lunch just now, too.

 

As to what he did to Frazier - I never denied what he did was shit. But you're painting him as an all-out bastard, which is what I take issue with. There's a massive difference between being nice and being good; Ali at one point was more famous for his politics than his boxing and was beloved by millions throughout the world, because of what he represented.

No, you never denied it, but it's always glossed over whenever the legacy of Ali is discussed. His treatment of Frazier is always explained away by various excuses. There was no excuse for it.

 

Happens with loads of famous figures, all the time. Funnily enough, though, no-one ever seems to object to iconoclasm when it comes to a black man who made the white establishment uncomfortable. They're happy to accept all the "nice" ones, like MLK and Eugene V. Debs, but bring up your Alis and your Malcolm Xs who held up a mirror, and they're suddenly the worst human beings on the face of the planet.

 

And forget about it if they're white. Very few people are willing to pick at the gloss over Churchill being a misogynist, racist, civilian-murdering cunt.

 

Also - Ali was selling the fight against Frazier. Horrible way to do it, but that's what he was doing. The worst thing he did was to not tell Frazier he was doing it.

And there's excuse #1. A lot of shit, of course, but if it explains away the possibility that Ali was a nasty, racist prick at that time then I guess it'll do, eh?

Hey, don't let that possibility inconvenience your determined hatred of the man. "A lot of shit, of course" - please. That's not a fact, and making out like it is won't make it so.

 

I consider Ali to be a smart man. He would have known fine well, especially at that time in the US, that you don't "sell a fight" using the tactics he did. For a man who spoke openly and widely about how racism had affected him throughout his life to use such tactics to sell a fight is ridiculous.

 

Yeah, it was. I don't approve of it either. But I don't consider that one instance to be representative of his entire life or what he stood for.

 

EDIT: Anyway, at the risk of being lame, I think we've both gone as far as we're ever going to on this argument. Obviously, my own experiences are what inform and tint my opinions, and as you say, you're not going to be changing your opinion of Ali any time soon.

Edited February 5, 2013 by Carbomb

[Egg Shen]

As i said, i aint an expert on the subject but Dave, is the disdain you for feel for Ali based purely on what happened in the run up to the Frazier fight or is there more to it?

[David]

As i said, i aint an expert on the subject but Dave, is the disdain you for feel for Ali based purely on what happened in the run up to the Frazier fight or is there more to it?

It's certainly the main issue I have as far as Ali goes, yeah. I simply believe that a lot of what he did & said when he was younger is swept under the carpet nowadays because it doesn't sit well with the image of Ali as a respectable sporting icon & hero.

 

As a boxer, I respect his ability (even though I don't rank him as the greatest heavyweight of all time), but as a person he seems like he was a bit of a prick. The Frazier issue highlights this more than anything else.

[wandshogun09]

Race was used to sell fights a lot. Larry Holmes vs Gerry Cooney was built on black vs white and it became huge. Hopkins vs Trinidad is another. It's an ugly, cheap way to sell a fight but it goes on.

 

I do believe Ali started off trying to hype the fight but as he often did, went too far and (understandably on Frazier's end) it all became very heated. I don't agree with how Ali went about that whole thing and I'm defo not making excuses to uphold some image. I've always preferred Frazier anyway. But I do think, at first anyway, he was just trying to sell the fight. The whole thing got bigger than anyone could've guessed.

 

I agree with Carbomb. It's easy for us to talk now, back then it was a rocky existence for black people in America. And different people dealt with that in differently. I've never been a victim of racism but my ex was and my first instinct was to want to react violently. And that was an isolated incident. Imagine what it was like as a black man in the south of the US in the 60s?