Boxing Thread

[BrianR]

Agreed on Frazier. I can deffo understand why he'd be bitter about it. Especially with the Uncle Tom/Gorilla comments and the death threats on his family. Ali certainly crossed the line there imo.

 

I remember I first saw the first Ali/Frazier fight not long before I saw the Thrilla in Manila doc and I was surprised that Ali/Dundee were acting like they got robbed. I know this goes on a lot in combat sports but I thought Frazier won that fight so convincingly that it was a ridiculous claim to make.

 

I'll need to dig out the DVD of the fight and watch again, but I thought the fight was pretty much still in the balance until the last round, Frazier slightly ahead, but Ali still in with a fighting chance. It's been a good few years since I watched it though, so as I say would have to dig it out again for another look.

 

Certainly think Frazier won the fight, and no way Ali was robbed as he and Dundee claimed. But similarly, Frazier moaned after the second fight (the 12 round eliminator which Ali clearly won by some distance).

 

I enjoyed the documentary but some of the claims that Frazier was level going into round 15 in Manila were pretty far fetched.

Ali was a good few rounds ahead after the 14th, and Frazier had nothing left. If he even had a remote chance of winning the fight then there's no way his corner would have pulled him out.

[Taylorslade]

Agreed on Frazier. I can deffo understand why he'd be bitter about it. Especially with the Uncle Tom/Gorilla comments and the death threats on his family. Ali certainly crossed the line there imo.

 

I remember I first saw the first Ali/Frazier fight not long before I saw the Thrilla in Manila doc and I was surprised that Ali/Dundee were acting like they got robbed. I know this goes on a lot in combat sports but I thought Frazier won that fight so convincingly that it was a ridiculous claim to make.

 

I'll need to dig out the DVD of the fight and watch again, but I thought the fight was pretty much still in the balance until the last round, Frazier slightly ahead, but Ali still in with a fighting chance. It's been a good few years since I watched it though, so as I say would have to dig it out again for another look.

 

Certainly think Frazier won the fight, and no way Ali was robbed as he and Dundee claimed. But similarly, Frazier moaned after the second fight (the 12 round eliminator which Ali clearly won by some distance).

 

I enjoyed the documentary but some of the claims that Frazier was level going into round 15 in Manila were pretty far fetched.

Ali was a good few rounds ahead after the 14th, and Frazier had nothing left. If he even had a remote chance of winning the fight then there's no way his corner would have pulled him out.

 

I agree that Ali was ahead going into the 15th of their third fight, but I have to disagree with you when you say that even if Frazier had a chance of winning then his corner would never of pulled him out. I believe that Eddie Futch really was highly concerned for Frazier's physical well-being in the future. Although I do think that the prospect of Frazier dying were a little far fetched, but not entirely ridiculous or unfounded.

 

I really do think that no matter what scenario was played out going into the 15th round, (both men level, Frazier slightly behind, even if Frazier was slightly ahead and just needed a strong finish), I still think Eddie Futch would've still pulled Joe out. I'm well aware that sometimes, stoppages such as this can be the product of a trainer wanting to save a fighter's credibility for another day or making their fighter look valiant in defeat, but I really feel that the great trainer saw enough risk to Frazier's health that he was willing to make such a potentially controversial decision. All of the ingredients that come together to leave a fighter permanently damaged or worse, were all there; sustained punishment to the head, exhaustion, dehydration and let's not forget the EXTREME heat. That's a bad combination, especially when Frazier was quite some time past his best aswell, and he was in all liklehood going to take some more punishment in the 15th. I don't think he would of took a shot and then hit the floor heavily and then get stretchered out, but I think he would of collapsed at some point after the last bell, or in the dressing room afterwards and who knows what would of happened then. It's worth remembering that as with practically all of Ali's fights back then, there was always a ridiculous ring invasion and chaos. If Frazier was to of taken a turn for the worst afterwards in the ring then he wouldn't of been getting an oxygen mask anytime soon, and that is the most critical element in such a situation as we know now certainly after the Michael Watson incident and subsequent law suit against the BBBofC. It's often claimed that Ali himself "collapsed", he didn't, he did hit the floor immediatley following the fight, but he was concious, just extremely tired and relieved as he himself took a lot of damage.

 

On a side note, the story about Ali going to Angelo Dundee after the 14th and telling him to "cut the gloves off, I've had enough", is somewhat disputed. Ali biographer Thomas Hauser said Ali did indeed verify the story to him, but it has been argued with quite some decent evidence that Ali did not want to "get in the way of a good story" and went along with it. There's a good article somewhere by Graham Houston on the subject, I'll see if I can find it later.

 

Something I forgot to mention when posting about documentaries ; there has been a documentary about the Benn Vs Mclellan fight and aftermath in production for quite some time now called "Fallen Soldier", although it's been around 2-3 years now since being announced and there hasn't been a trailer or interview with the maker, or anything else of that nature for quite some time now, so it may of been canned. Hopefully not.

[wandshogun09]

Yeah I'll have to give Ali/Frazier 1 a re-watch too. It's been a few years, maybe it was closer than I remembered.

 

Hope they do go ahead with that 'Fallen Soldier' doc. Aside from the tragedy, the Benn/McClellan fight was an amazing fight with a shit load of drama. Would be great to see the story told in detail.

[BrianR]

Agreed on Frazier. I can deffo understand why he'd be bitter about it. Especially with the Uncle Tom/Gorilla comments and the death threats on his family. Ali certainly crossed the line there imo.

 

I remember I first saw the first Ali/Frazier fight not long before I saw the Thrilla in Manila doc and I was surprised that Ali/Dundee were acting like they got robbed. I know this goes on a lot in combat sports but I thought Frazier won that fight so convincingly that it was a ridiculous claim to make.

 

I'll need to dig out the DVD of the fight and watch again, but I thought the fight was pretty much still in the balance until the last round, Frazier slightly ahead, but Ali still in with a fighting chance. It's been a good few years since I watched it though, so as I say would have to dig it out again for another look.

 

Certainly think Frazier won the fight, and no way Ali was robbed as he and Dundee claimed. But similarly, Frazier moaned after the second fight (the 12 round eliminator which Ali clearly won by some distance).

 

I enjoyed the documentary but some of the claims that Frazier was level going into round 15 in Manila were pretty far fetched.

Ali was a good few rounds ahead after the 14th, and Frazier had nothing left. If he even had a remote chance of winning the fight then there's no way his corner would have pulled him out.

 

I agree that Ali was ahead going into the 15th of their third fight, but I have to disagree with you when you say that even if Frazier had a chance of winning then his corner would never of pulled him out. I believe that Eddie Futch really was highly concerned for Frazier's physical well-being in the future. Although I do think that the prospect of Frazier dying were a little far fetched, but not entirely ridiculous or unfounded.

 

I really do think that no matter what scenario was played out going into the 15th round, (both men level, Frazier slightly behind, even if Frazier was slightly ahead and just needed a strong finish), I still think Eddie Futch would've still pulled Joe out. I'm well aware that sometimes, stoppages such as this can be the product of a trainer wanting to save a fighter's credibility for another day or making their fighter look valiant in defeat, but I really feel that the great trainer saw enough risk to Frazier's health that he was willing to make such a potentially controversial decision. All of the ingredients that come together to leave a fighter permanently damaged or worse, were all there; sustained punishment to the head, exhaustion, dehydration and let's not forget the EXTREME heat. That's a bad combination, especially when Frazier was quite some time past his best aswell, and he was in all liklehood going to take some more punishment in the 15th. I don't think he would of took a shot and then hit the floor heavily and then get stretchered out, but I think he would of collapsed at some point after the last bell, or in the dressing room afterwards and who knows what would of happened then. It's worth remembering that as with practically all of Ali's fights back then, there was always a ridiculous ring invasion and chaos. If Frazier was to of taken a turn for the worst afterwards in the ring then he wouldn't of been getting an oxygen mask anytime soon, and that is the most critical element in such a situation as we know now certainly after the Michael Watson incident and subsequent law suit against the BBBofC. It's often claimed that Ali himself "collapsed", he didn't, he did hit the floor immediatley following the fight, but he was concious, just extremely tired and relieved as he himself took a lot of damage.

 

On a side note, the story about Ali going to Angelo Dundee after the 14th and telling him to "cut the gloves off, I've had enough", is somewhat disputed. Ali biographer Thomas Hauser said Ali did indeed verify the story to him, but it has been argued with quite some decent evidence that Ali did not want to "get in the way of a good story" and went along with it. There's a good article somewhere by Graham Houston on the subject, I'll see if I can find it later.

 

 

 

You make some really good points there, particularly regarding Frazier being at the end of his career and the ring invasion and circus surrounding Ali. I'm still not so sure though.

 

Doesnt Marvis Frazier say that either himself or one of Joes cornermen (cant remember which it is) was trying to relay to Futch that Ali was finished after round 14 and to get Joe on his feet for the last round because Ali may not be coming out? To me that may suggest that had Futch known this he may have put Frazier out for the final round, regardless of what shape he was in.

 

I dont think Ali collapsed post fight- not in the ring anyway- he was definitely exhausted but sat down because he didnt want to be paraded round the ring on peoples shoulders- he did this at the conclusion of the Foreman fight also.

 

We'll never know all the facts of course, but obviously its an interesting discussion none the less. Plus its given me the urge to dig out the documentary and watch the fights again.

[wandshogun09]

Something I forgot to mention when posting about documentaries ; there has been a documentary about the Benn Vs Mclellan fight and aftermath in production for quite some time now called "Fallen Soldier", although it's been around 2-3 years now since being announced and there hasn't been a trailer or interview with the maker, or anything else of that nature for quite some time now, so it may of been canned. Hopefully not.

 

Something I found about this. Apparently ITV have commissioned a new doc on the Benn vs McClellan fight. It's not the Fallen Soldier one this is another one. Dunno if the Fallen Soldier doc has been abandoned?

 

Here's a thread on the EastSideBoxing forum I found on the subject. Thread's from Feb 2011 and says filming was due to start in April.

 

http://www.eastsideboxing.com/forum/showthread.php?t=288788

 

there's a link to a video preview in the thread but I haven't joined the forum and only members can see the links

[Egg Shen]

i love how the classic old school fights have little myth's that surround them.

[PowerButchi]

Something I forgot to mention when posting about documentaries ; there has been a documentary about the Benn Vs Mclellan fight and aftermath in production for quite some time now called "Fallen Soldier", although it's been around 2-3 years now since being announced and there hasn't been a trailer or interview with the maker, or anything else of that nature for quite some time now, so it may of been canned. Hopefully not.

 

Something I found about this. Apparently ITV have commissioned a new doc on the Benn vs McClellan fight. It's not the Fallen Soldier one this is another one. Dunno if the Fallen Soldier doc has been abandoned?

 

Here's a thread on the EastSideBoxing forum I found on the subject. Thread's from Feb 2011 and says filming was due to start in April.

 

http://www.eastsideboxing.com/forum/showthread.php?t=288788

 

there's a link to a video preview in the thread but I haven't joined the forum and only members can see the links

 

The link on the forum doesn't work anymore, unfortunately. But apparently they're using some clips from this for it -

 

Have you read "War, Baby: The Glamour of Violence" by Kevin Mitchell? Fantastic book on Benn vs McClellan and McClellan prior the fight and post. One of the best books on boxing I've ever read. A hugely recommended read.

 

EDIT: Here's the trailer - http://www.bobbyrazakmovies.com/?p=244

Edited May 27, 2011 by ButchReedMark

[wandshogun09]

Thanks for that Butch. I've heard a lot of good stuff about War Baby, been meaning to get that for a while now I'll get hold of that next payday I think.

 

Cheers for the trailer too. I wanna see it even more now.

[David]

Does anyone know of any decent boxing podcasts?

[rubbafish]

Does anyone know of any decent boxing podcasts?

 

The legend that is Buncey

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/series/bunce

[mikey]

I used to like Lance Williams on MySportsRadio, not sure if he's still around.

 

Never listened to his podcast but Ramon Aranda of 3 More Rounds is very knowledgeable and an all-round decent guy.

[METAL ON METAL]

Frank Maloney & Adam Booth are saying that Groves fighting Tony Jeffries at the Stadium of Light is a good possibility for late this year/early 2012.

 

Despite being a fan of Jaffa, I think Groves is a step above him right now and Jeffries hasn't really fought any good fighters yet. Didn't look the best in his last fight, although that was only 2 weeks after he moved his training over to LA. That being said his trainer Tommy Brooks (Holyfield ect.) has said he is shocked at how much he has improved since he started training him and thinks he is ready to fight Groves.

 

Jeffries is fighting in Florida either next month or July, so we should see how far he has improved since.

 

Groves is the better all round fighter and far more technical but Jeffries is the heavier hitter imo - and has a height & reach advantage over Groves.

 

People may think having it at the Stadium of Light would be far too big a venue, but they'd definitely get 20,000 in there - Jeffries level of support here is quite astonishing really considering he has only had 8 fights.

 

I'd definitely get a ticket for that if it indeed does end up happening.

[David]

Cheers to both Rubbafish & Mikey. Got two excellent podcasts out of that info there.

[Lawz]

I'm not really a big Amir Khan fan but I'm intrigued to see they've announced Khan vs Zab Judah, how good is Judah these days?

[mikey]

He's Zab Judah at 140 lbs. Same as he always was except now he's big for a weight rather than small. I think it's a dangerous test and he's easily top five in the weight class.

 

In saying that, Judah's been knocked down in both his last two wins.

Edited June 2, 2011 by mikey