David Mantell Posted March 18, 2025 Author Posted March 18, 2025 On 3/14/2025 at 4:15 PM, BomberPat said: , no matter how much the oldies scoff at it. My Grandad was the resident World of Sport watcher in my family, and I remember him silently watching a bit of a WWF show with me in maybe 2000 or 2001, and finally turning to me to ask, "so do they ever actually wrestle, then?". You didn't have to be old to feel that way. I was 12 in January 1987 (I go 51 this Friday) and I absolutely HATED that first WWF Special, the way everything was OTT. There was a time and a place for Big Daddy tags and suchlike but I hated the way EVERY bout was like a Big Daddy tag. It was like watching GLOW or something. If I hadn't discovered PWI and the other Aptermags I would never have taken American Wrestling seriously at all.
Paid Members Carbomb Posted March 18, 2025 Paid Members Posted March 18, 2025 57 minutes ago, David Mantell said: Rubbish. It's still there. All Star, Rumble and Premier. I go to see it and I watch it on my smart TV on YouTube. That's not what is being discussed, though. When we say "it was all over", we're talking about British wrestling occupying a place in mainstream, public consciousness with easy access via nationwide TV, competing with WWE for eyeballs. Yes, those companies are still about, but none of the people who wrestle for them are household names or famous faces.
David Mantell Posted March 18, 2025 Author Posted March 18, 2025 1 minute ago, Carbomb said: That's not what is being discussed, though. When we say "it was all over", we're talking about British wrestling occupying a place in mainstream, public consciousness with easy access via nationwide TV, competing with WWE for eyeballs. Yes, those companies are still about, but none of the people who wrestle for them are household names or famous faces. 1) The myth that it is extinct is something put about successive generations of New School promotions partly for business reasons and partly as a legacy of twisted smark hatred for traditional British wrestling culture (similar to the anti Bob Backlund movement in early 80s America) . Three traditional European territories -Britain, France and Germany /Austria - still live on even if at grassroots level. By contrast only New York (which lives on as WWE) survives of the old American/Canadian territories. It's an annoying myth which I make a point of hammering into the ground any time it pops its ugly head up. 2)There are still several times enough Old School shows on the scale of an average ITV taping to provide footage for a year round supply of 45 minute weekly editions. Just add cameras (and Rumble have that covered with their YouTube channel)
Paid Members Carbomb Posted March 18, 2025 Paid Members Posted March 18, 2025 14 minutes ago, David Mantell said: 1) The myth that it is extinct is something put about successive generations of New School promotions partly for business reasons and partly as a legacy of twisted smark hatred for traditional British wrestling culture (similar to the anti Bob Backlund movement in early 80s America) . Three traditional European territories -Britain, France and Germany /Austria - still live on even if at grassroots level. By contrast only New York (which lives on as WWE) survives of the old American/Canadian territories. It's an annoying myth which I make a point of hammering into the ground any time it pops its ugly head up. I love traditional British wrestling as well, and I'd love to see it back on TV, but again: this discussion wasn't about whether or not British wrestling is extinct, it was about whether or not it could have carried on at the level it had previously in the face of the WWF's expansion. When Chico said "it was all over", I'm fairly sure that, in the context of the discussion thus far, that was what he was talking about. 14 minutes ago, David Mantell said: 2)There are still several times enough Old School shows on the scale of an average ITV taping to provide footage for a year round supply of 45 minute weekly editions. Just add cameras (and Rumble have that covered with their YouTube channel) There's definitely a conversation to be had about that, and I'm all for it. We then get to the point of asking "Why not?" I'm not doubting the quality of the wrestling, nor the popularity of the live shows, but I would be willing to bet that the biggest problem as regards getting TV and therefore a wider audience would be production values. Simply adding cameras to a live event wouldn't work; even WWE couldn't get away with that for their house shows, because they're not set up for that. Just took a look at Rumble's Youtube channel, on your recommendation, and I have to say that, whilst this would be adequate watching for me, I really don't think it would be enough to get people to come away from AEW or WWE. I don't think it would even be enough to get them away from NXT UK, and that had to shut its doors from lack of viewers, even with the WWE machine behind it. Put it this way. This is watchable for a dyed-in-the-wool wrestling enthusiast: But this is the expectation of production quality it would have to compete with: This is something we used to discuss all the way back in 2004, when FWA were actually making headway. They probably had some of the best production of any BritWres that ever made it to TV, and it still wasn't enough.
Paid Members gmoney Posted March 18, 2025 Paid Members Posted March 18, 2025 2 hours ago, David Mantell said: For what it's worth I think of the mid to late 80s as being this time of younger lighter weight talent coming through - Danny Collins, Kid McCoy, the UK Greg Valentine, Ritchie Brooks, Peter Bainbridge, Tony Stewart, Robbie Brookside, Doc Dean, Andy Blair, Ian McGregor, Gary Welsh ... A veritable "Who's That?" You're right, the UK scene wasn't on it's arse.
David Mantell Posted March 18, 2025 Author Posted March 18, 2025 8 hours ago, gmoney said: A veritable "Who's That?" You're right, the UK scene wasn't on it's arse. Well, teenage me could have told you who most of them are.
David Mantell Posted March 18, 2025 Author Posted March 18, 2025 8 hours ago, Carbomb said: I love traditional British wrestling as well, and I'd love to see it back on TV, but again: this discussion wasn't about whether or not British wrestling is extinct, it was about whether or not it could have carried on at the level it had previously in the face of the WWF's expansion. When Chico said "it was all over", I'm fairly sure that, in the context of the discussion thus far, that was what he was talking about. There's definitely a conversation to be had about that, and I'm all for it. We then get to the point of asking "Why not?" I'm not doubting the quality of the wrestling, nor the popularity of the live shows, but I would be willing to bet that the biggest problem as regards getting TV and therefore a wider audience would be production values. Simply adding cameras to a live event wouldn't work; even WWE couldn't get away with that for their house shows, because they're not set up for that. Just took a look at Rumble's Youtube channel, on your recommendation, and I have to say that, whilst this would be adequate watching for me, I really don't think it would be enough to get people to come away from AEW or WWE. I don't think it would even be enough to get them away from NXT UK, and that had to shut its doors from lack of viewers, even with the WWE machine behind it. Put it this way. This is watchable for a dyed-in-the-wool wrestling enthusiast: But this is the expectation of production quality it would have to compete with: This is something we used to discuss all the way back in 2004, when FWA were actually making headway. They probably had some of the best production of any BritWres that ever made it to TV, and it still wasn't enough. About twice as many people were watching ITV each week in the UK as watch RAW every week in America of 2025. (3M Vs 1.5M). As a proportion of the respective populations rather than just raw figures, that works out to about 10 times the audience . (Mind you, the 33 Million that watched The Main Event in 1988 was about equal as a proportion of the population to the 6-7 million World of Sport pulled in most weeks in the 70s which tells you all you need to know about wrestling's greater endemic popularity over here, which made it easier for Vince and Ted Turner too.) Rumble does a lot of clean old school bouts that would have warmed the cockles of Kent Walton's heart. (Yes I know they also do a lot of stuff that back in the early 90s was considered either envelope pushing or a betrayal when Reslo did it but now is seen as a necessary compromise for the punters) All Star also has quite a lot of bouts like that on their shows. Premier of course puts on an uncompromising old school show. Many of the venues these promotions use are either actual former ITV venues or places of similar calibre (eg my local, Dudley Town Hall.)
David Mantell Posted March 18, 2025 Author Posted March 18, 2025 9 hours ago, Carbomb said: When Chico said "it was all over", I'm fairly sure that, in the context of the discussion thus far, that was what he was talking about. I hear that phraseology used to mean extinction so much I have a kneejerk distrust of it. Virtually every Americanised/New School promotion likes to put on its promotional blurb that wrestling "died out" in 1988 they are the Grand Revival of it all.
Paid Members Lion_of_the_Midlands Posted March 18, 2025 Paid Members Posted March 18, 2025 (edited) Comparing TV ratings from back then to today is absolute horseshit because the TV and entertainment package has changed so much that there is no comparison. WWE has 107 million subscribers on its main YouTube channel today. How many did World Of Sport have in 1987? You see how these things work? I'm a little bit older than you Dutch. I went to my first wrestling show in the late 70s and also never stopped going after it came off TV. The difference was that wrestling was on once or twice a year compared to every month so wihile it may not have died out it was absolutely on its arse. There was no one or nothing that could compete with the razzmatazz of the WWF in Britain. The top guys like Saint, Regal, Finlay and Roberts all went abroad to work because they couldn't earn a living on the job here. As for so called new school wrestling promotions not wanting to honour the old guys, that is also horseshit. The FWA for example had Pat Roach as commissioner, Drew McDonald and Robbie Brookside featured a lot. People like Steve Gray and Jonny Kidd both appeared on what would be called New School cards. Add in that loads of new promotions did rounds and 2/3 falls I don't think anyone was trying to bury the tradition of British Wrestling. No one thought that British Wrestling was completely extinct, no one. That show in 2002 was called Revival not Resurrection. Now if you could keep your reply to under 14 different posts we would all appreciate it. Edited March 18, 2025 by Lion_of_the_Midlands Tony Shitfire made me do it.
David Mantell Posted March 18, 2025 Author Posted March 18, 2025 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Lion_of_the_Midlands said: As for so called new school wrestling promotions not wanting to honour the old guys, that is also horseshit. I refer you to Alex Shane's remarks about fat old men in swimming trunks and how notorious old school hater Fin Martin positively CREAMED over it. I have never forgiven Alex Shane for that remark, I'd like to have seen him DARE to go to a Croydon show in 2002 and tell that to the regulars there. Edited March 18, 2025 by David Mantell
David Mantell Posted March 18, 2025 Author Posted March 18, 2025 43 minutes ago, David Mantell said: Rumble does a lot of clean old school bouts that would have warmed the cockles of Kent Walton's heart. (Yes I know they also do a lot of stuff that back in the early 90s was considered either envelope pushing or a betrayal when Reslo did it but now is seen as a necessary compromise for the punters) All Star also has quite a lot of bouts like that on their shows. Premier of course puts on an uncompromising old school show. Many of the venues these promotions use are either actual former ITV venues or places of similar calibre (eg my local, Dudley Town Hall.) Apart from that bout, I also like to use these examples to illustrate the survival of traditional British Wrestling in the C21st in online debates with strangers.
Paid Members Lion_of_the_Midlands Posted March 18, 2025 Paid Members Posted March 18, 2025 The heel Alex Shane said something that made you mad. You got worked Dutch and there's two things you can do about it, nuffink and like it.
David Mantell Posted March 18, 2025 Author Posted March 18, 2025 Just now, Lion_of_the_Midlands said: The heel Alex Shane said something that made you mad. You got worked Dutch and there's two things you can do about it, nuffink and like it. No. He said it as a babyface (somehow the term seems more appropriate for FWA than Blue eye.) and got cheered by FWA's smarky following for it, Fin M in print included.
Paid Members Lion_of_the_Midlands Posted March 18, 2025 Paid Members Posted March 18, 2025 OK I remember. He said it about Drew McDonald who was a heel in the FWA. So he still worked you and there's still two things you can do about it.
David Mantell Posted March 18, 2025 Author Posted March 18, 2025 1 minute ago, Lion_of_the_Midlands said: OK I remember. He said it about Drew McDonald who was a heel in the FWA. So he still worked you and there's still two things you can do about it. He said it about Trad Brit wrestling in general.
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