WCW Worldwide on ITV Sat Afternoon 92-95 - Ratings?

[RoryT]

Off topic i know, but I remember my grandmother getting me a WCW jigsaw in 1993, i was like "who is this chubby old man", think it was Flair.

 Not sure if it was shown in the Grampian region, or if I was just too young and never caught it. First WCW show I saw was Wargames 93(?) On VHS and that would have been about 1996.

[David Mantell]

8 hours ago, RoryT said:

Off topic i know, but I remember my grandmother getting me a WCW jigsaw in 1993, i was like "who is this chubby old man", think it was Flair.

 Not sure if it was shown in the Grampian region, or if I was just too young and never caught it. First WCW show I saw was Wargames 93(?) On VHS and that would have been about 1996.

You lived in Grampian?  Did you get to see this in 1990/1991?

 

[David Mantell]

The early part of this vlog touches on the subject of WCW's early UK popularity but they ruin it all by saying that "no one watched WCW because it was on late at night." The first part is dubious, the second was correct in December 1991 but not by 1992-1995.

(It all goes horribly off topics after the first ten minutes -pleade kindly IGNORE the rest of it. )

 

Edited January 30, 2025 by David Mantell

[Samblaze]

On 1/20/2025 at 12:14 PM, David Mantell said:

A thought:

If the Astra satellite had been ready to house a WWF boom a year earlier or ITV's contract with Joint, All Star and the WWF had lasted a year longer, it would have been IMPOSSIBLE for Greg Dyke to cancel wrestling and it would have stayed on, perhaps to the present day.

A further thought:

How would this have panned out? I think WCW would have replaced WWF for the American specials and Joint and All Star would have swapped percentages of coverage.

Things would have got interesting in 1995 when RWS (the former Joint) closed down and Superchannel poached WCW. Possibly Rumble or TWA would have nabbed RWS's spot but who would the American specials have gone to? ECW was unscreenable on late 90s ITV. USWA was dying off. Smokey Mountain already pretty much gone. Reslo also finished that year. Kent Walton would have vehemently objected to Hammerlock, WAW or any of the later Americanised/New School promotions. Perhaps they would have replaced the American wrestling with Japan or the CWA/EWP.

Where do you reckon the careers of Big Daddy & Giant Haystacks would have gone?

[BomberPat]

by this point Daddy and Haystacks are a bit of a non-issue; Daddy retired in 1993, and likely would have been finished up then regardless of the state of wrestling on TV, he was in his 60s.

Assuming another promotion got the RWS TV slot, Big Daddy likely would have stuck with his family and promoted off-TV. I don't see another promoter bothering to bring him in at that stage. Haystacks would have still got bookings, but again, he was done by 1996, and was clearly unwell beyond that - though Kevin Sullivan probably still would have brought him in to WCW regardless of the state of British wrestling, so the question there would be whether, if the UK scene had been healthier, Haystacks would have been living comfortably enough and earning enough money to be able to turn down an offer from WCW. Which seems extremely unlikely in any fantasy scenario.

[Chico Torres]

As soon as they showed the larger than life, colourful, roided superstars of the WWF wrestling in front of 20,000 people in Madison Square Garden in New York City in the ITV time slot, British wrestling was done. Can’t watch that and then be expected to watch your old uncles in their pants exchanging armlocks in Runcorn leisure centre (and I say that as someone who enjoys both). 

[Carbomb]

2 hours ago, Chico Torres said:

As soon as they showed the larger than life, colourful, roided superstars of the WWF wrestling in front of 20,000 people in Madison Square Garden in New York City in the ITV time slot, British wrestling was done. Can’t watch that and then be expected to watch your old uncles in their pants exchanging armlocks in Runcorn leisure centre (and I say that as someone who enjoys both). 

This is why, in another thread, I mentioned that the only people British wrestling might have been able to hinge on in a meaningful attempt to survive (and even then I don't think it would have been able to) would have been Wayne Bridges, who was in pretty good shape, Pat Roach, who was a big, hefty dude who'd played henchmen and boss characters in movies, and maybe "Rollerball" Rocco, who wasn't big, but was colourful in character, wrestling style, and look. William/Steve Regal was still in the UK at that point - he might have been worth putting some focus on, and maybe Robbie Brookside as well, who didn't have the most amazing look body-wise, but being young, energetic, not awful on the mike, and having long hair, would've appealed to the younger generation. Clive Myers, maybe? He'd been around a while at that point, though. Maybe they'd have got in some stars from Japan using their connections with Liger, Sayama, and Maeda.

But I very much agree with you: what the WWF was putting out at the time was difficult to compete with, and I don't think anyone the UK had would've been able to make a dent in their juggernaut.

[BomberPat]

Ultimately it would have taken a complete repackaging and reinvention of British wrestling that the old guard weren't capable of, and that British TV neither had the budget nor the interest in. Maybe you could repackage British wrestling as something more Saturday afternoon light entertainment like Gladiators, as a studio production, so it's distinct enough to American wrestling as to not make you compare Madison Square Garden to Wolverhampton Civic Hall. But from the wrestling side that would be ceding too much control to the telly business, and from the TV side, it's losing out on the appeal of wrestling as just something you either send a couple of camera guys down to film or let the promotion film for you, and turning it into a big in-house production. And why bother when you've already got Gladiators?

It might have worked in another TV landscape. Maybe Channel 4 could have picked up some British wrestling and stuck it on Sunday evenings between the Sumo and the Kabaddi. But then you're back to where it's coming from, who's providing the wrestling side of the deal - Dixon? Crabtree? All damaged goods, TV-wise. 

And @Carbomb, if we're talking early '90s, Rocco's already had to retire in 1991, Bridges and Roach would both be in their 50s. They could both still go, but it's not going to do a lot to shake the perception of British wrestlers being slightly knackered looking old men without positioning them as gatekeeper heels positioned against some good credible babyfaces. There's some interesting young talent coming up in the '90s, and old-timers who could still go, but it would be a real uphill battle to sell any of it as anything close to the WWF.

 

I think the other thing that people tend to forget now is just how exotic America was as a concept; it was this massive unknowable thing where all the biggest stars in the world seemed to come from, and that your parents' generation didn't really trust. The WWF feels a big part of that to me, that it's this monolithic American product that of course is bigger and better than anything the British could do, because that's what America is, no matter how much the oldies scoff at it. My Grandad was the resident World of Sport watcher in my family, and I remember him silently watching a bit of a WWF show with me in maybe 2000 or 2001, and finally turning to me to ask, "so do they ever actually wrestle, then?". 

 

EDIT: Thinking further on possible alternative futures for British TV wrestling - some hybrid of Reslo and Bushido is probably it; packaging choice British wrestling matches alongside matches from other countries, packaged with British hosts and commentary, as a kind of "World of Wrestling" magazine show. But you'd almost certainly be relying on inconsistent footage, and it would lack the kind of continuing narrative and characters that you get from a singular promotion like the WWF, where the audience are following the storylines along every week, so I don't think it would hook anyone without serious effort. But I think that would have been the best hope we had.

Edited March 14, 2025 by BomberPat

[Chico Torres]

Nailed it on the point about the exoticism of America. A magical place  which had The A Team, Knight Rider, Airwolf, Robocop, Rambo, Terminator, MTV, hundreds of tv channels, mega cities with skyscrapers etc and their wrestling was in big arenas and stadiums with He-Man real life action figures and face paint and music and people were attacked with snakes and locked in coffins and millionaires bribed evil referee twins. Nothing on our grim grey little island could compare, certainly not a couple of pub landlords grappling in Stoke or a panto villain bouncing off some fat grandads belly.

Much like the territory system inevitably (and unfortunately) collapsed once people were exposed to cable tv rather than local studio wrestling, once people saw over the top American wrestling it was all over.

[TibBo]

18 hours ago, BomberPat said:

to not make you compare Madison Square Garden to Wolverhampton Civic Hall

Oi! They’ve built a 2nd balcony now, and they sell Sahara Nuts in the bar. lol.

Great points as ever Pat. It’s crazy to think they would need to do a complete overhaul of the British Wrestling industry to even try and compete with WWF, and yet Vince wasn’t even particularly trying to kill it off. It’s not like he had raided their talent or tried to buy-out companies like he did in the US. 
It was just collateral damage really.

[David Mantell]

On 3/14/2025 at 10:40 AM, Samblaze said:

Where do you reckon the careers of Big Daddy & Giant Haystacks would have gone?

They would have finished the same time they did in our timeline.

There were other young stars coming through by the mid 90s. The Three Js - James Mason, Jason Cross, Justin Hansford - Stevie Bee,  Phil & Vic Powers, Robbie Michaels.  Danny Collins and Robbie Brookside were having their first proper heel runs. Danny's brother Peter would become Mr Vain a mega heel of the late 90s early Noughties.

Then from 2001 onwards there was the whole Hanley crowd who joined All Star - Dean Allmark, Robbie Dynamite Berzins, Mikey Whiplash Gilbert, Playboy Johnny Midnight, Kid Cool - plus other guys like Tony Spitfire .

If you want a vision of what life would be like today with ITV coverage still going in 2025, imagine a world where Nino Bryant and Jordan Breaks were at least as famous as Bert Royal and Vic Faulkner were in the 60s/70s.

[David Mantell]

On 3/15/2025 at 10:56 AM, TibBo said:

Great points as ever Pat. It’s crazy to think they would need to do a complete overhaul of the British Wrestling industry to even try and compete with WWF, and yet Vince wasn’t even particularly trying to kill it off. It’s not like he had raided their talent or tried to buy-out companies like he did in the US. 
It was just collateral damage really.

Didn't need to compete really. The two world benefitted off each other.  British wrestling laid the foundation of popularity so Vince didn't have to convert a nation from scratch like he did with middle class America.  And people came and still come to both Trad Brit and Americanised shows to bridge the gaps between arena tours by WWE/WCW/TNA/AEW etc etc and they buy the cheap American merch on sale and so bring even more money into the business.

Blackpool doesn't have to compete with Dubai or Florida. It just gets on with being Blackpool and will still be here after we're all gone..

Edited March 18, 2025 by David Mantell

[David Mantell]

On 3/14/2025 at 12:29 PM, Chico Torres said:

British wrestling was done

Quote

once people saw over the top American wrestling it was all over.

Rubbish.  It's still there.  All Star, Rumble and Premier. I go to see it and I watch it on my smart TV on YouTube.

20K in MSG is irrelevant anyway. Greg Dyke hated any and all wrestling and wanted to stage a big getting-rid so he could upscale the ITV brand to get advertisers to sell their yuppie toys. If it was all about MSG then the WWF would simply have replaced Joint and All Star and that would have been that.

(Personally I don't think MSG Network footage looked all that great anyway, it looked much the same from the 70s to the mid 90s.  The footage that looked good and advanced was SNME and the PPVs and you can credit Dick Ebersole for all that style of filming.  Late 80s MSG looked unchanged since Bruno's second reign.)

Edited March 18, 2025 by David Mantell

[David Mantell]

On 3/14/2025 at 4:15 PM, BomberPat said:

And @Carbomb, if we're talking early '90s, Rocco's already had to retire in 1991, Bridges and Roach would both be in their 50s. They could both still go, but it's not going to do a lot to shake the perception of British wrestlers being slightly knackered looking old men without positioning them as gatekeeper heels positioned against some good credible babyfaces. There's some interesting young talent coming up in the '90s, and old-timers who could still go, but it would be a real uphill battle to sell any of it as anything close to the WWF.

Kendo was THE big star of the early 90s.  The first five years post TV of All Star with him as lead heel were absolutely red hot. That period of All Star was ***MY*** ECW.

Bridges retired in 1989. Roach carried on into the Noughties until  just before he died if cancer.

Edited March 18, 2025 by David Mantell

[David Mantell]

On 3/14/2025 at 12:29 PM, Chico Torres said:

Can’t watch that and then be expected to watch your old uncles in their pants exchanging armlocks

On 3/14/2025 at 5:10 PM, Chico Torres said:

Nothing on our grim grey little island could compare, certainly not a couple of pub landlords grappling in Stoke or a panto villain bouncing off some fat grandads belly.

On 3/14/2025 at 4:15 PM, BomberPat said:

but it's not going to do a lot to shake the perception of British wrestlers being slightly knackered looking old men without positioning them as gatekeeper heels positioned against some good credible babyfaces.

For what it's worth I think of the mid to late 80s as being this time of younger lighter weight talent coming through - Danny Collins, Kid McCoy, the UK Greg Valentine, Ritchie Brooks, Peter Bainbridge, Tony Stewart, Robbie Brookside, Doc Dean, Andy Blair, Ian McGregor, Gary Welsh ...

Edited March 18, 2025 by David Mantell