The NXT Discussion Thread

[tiger_rick]

1 hour ago, RedTwoster said:

You're right about WWE's shift being motivated by perception/PR - but I suppose my counterpoint to this would be that if you don't present an act as being main event level, how can they possibly cross that threshold? 

That happens all the time. I don't subscribe to HHH's view, that he trots out everytime he's dropped the ball with someone, that you get over and then you get the opportunity but, I do think you have to show something in order to justify being put in spots that are important to the company's success. That goes for midcard male wrestlers all the time. AEW could decide to present Daniel Garcia as a main event level wrestler tomorrow but it's not going to be the case. A lot of the women are on a similar level. I think they're great and valuable but I don't think it's justified that they are pushed anymore than Garcia because they're women.

However, when they're clearly showing that they have everything necessary to be draws, like Toni most obviously, Britt Baker for a bit (or perhaps more fairly, the combo of Britt and Thunder Rosa), Mercedes has been for a long time and Willow Nightingale has been utterly inevitable for the last year. That has been rewarded with spots and promotion worthy of really high level talent.

I know the exception is that they haven't main evented a PPV but I still think that's only because there's been a more important match on most shows, other than Toni v Mariah, which was almsot certainly because Mariah was leaving. I would never begrudge the women a spot in the main event if that's what the company decided. I do absolutely love Toni, Willow and Mercedes. I just wouldn't be being honest if I claimed on here that I'd have headlined the women above the AEW World Championship except for Toni vs. Mariah because I wouldn't. But I do see a time where Toni vs. Mercedes and Toni vs. Willow are two of the biggest matches they have and they have to make a decision, or make sure the AEW Champion is in some sort of multi-man match so the Women's Title takes the spotlight without shitting on themselves.

1 hour ago, RedTwoster said:

I think it's hard to argue that the likes of Mercedes Mone, Rhea Ripley, Toni Storm, Willow Nightingale, Thekla and Becky Lynch have become every bit as valuable to their companies as any top male wrestler. 

I'm being petty but I don't think Thekla is anywhere near the level of the rest of that list. Albeit, she is super entertaining and should get there eventually.

Edited Tuesday at 11:39 AM by tiger_rick

[RedTwoster]

45 minutes ago, tiger_rick said:

I'm being petty but I don't think Thekla is anywhere near the level of the rest of that list. Albeit, she is super entertaining and should get there eventually.

It's not petty at all you're right, but I would point out that I said 'as valuable' as opposed to 'as big a star' and that, I would stand by. She's only 33, she's become one of the best promos in the company and every segment she's involved in is tremendously entertaining. You remove her from your roster and you notice it - and as far as emerging stars in AEW go, I'd sooner retain her over Kevin Knight, Kyle Fletcher or Takeshita if I that bizarre decision ever had to be made. 

[BomberPat]

I think there's an argument that the women's title match could have main evented Redemption, because Kenny Omega vs. Kevin Knight wasn't a strong men's World Title match, but then the consideration there is for closing the show with the Omega/Ospreay/Death Riders angle. 

Looking at every PPV card, assuming that the women's matches they booked were the biggest matches they could have booked at the time (because it would be too much work and a bit mad to try and retcon those shows to the women's matches they could have booked), there's a few where the men's World Title match headlines and feels a bit lacking - Omega/Knight I already mentioned, but Hangman/Fletcher at All Out 2025 is another that didn't feel like the biggest match they could have run, but then the women's matches on those shows aren't strong enough to headline over them either. You could question whether the booking could have made them bigger, sure, but it's hard to say they warranted the main event spot over everything else on the card.

Probably the two biggest women's matches they have ever run are Mercedes Moné vs. Willow Nightingale, and Mercedes Moné vs. Toni Storm. The former happened at Wembley on the same show as Ospreay vs. Omega, and the latter at All In 2025 on the same show as Hangman beating Moxley for the belt, and the Okada/Omega unification match, so while either of those matches could have main evented a pay-per-view, I think it's hard to argue that they could have main evented the pay-per-views they actually happened on. 

The only pay-per-view where a women's match was, I think, inarguably bigger and better than what actually main evented above it was Revolution 2025, with the Hollywood Ending between Toni Storm and Mariah May, where the main event was Moxley vs. Adam Copeland. But, again, we now know that it was Mariah May's final match with AEW, so I fully understand them not giving her that spot on the way out.

 

I think it's only a matter of time before Mercedes Moné headlines a PPV. I expect her and Willow will be a main event in the not too distant future, and I sincerely hope I'm not wrong about that. Toni Storm, when she returns, could easily walk into a main event level storyline, assuming they nail the reveal angle of who took her out. If someone like Bayley ever jumps ship from WWE to AEW, with the right timing, that could be a main event angle for sure. 

[RedTwoster]

22 minutes ago, BomberPat said:

I think it's only a matter of time before Mercedes Moné headlines a PPV. I expect her and Willow will be a main event in the not too distant future, and I sincerely hope I'm not wrong about that. Toni Storm, when she returns, could easily walk into a main event level storyline, assuming they nail the reveal angle of who took her out. If someone like Bayley ever jumps ship from WWE to AEW, with the right timing, that could be a main event angle for sure. 

I reckon Mone/Willow will close Wrestledream, and I hope I'm right. And I'd love to see Bayley jump to AEW. 

Back on the subject of NXT, though - at the moment, I don't look at the men's section of the NXT roster and see anyone who I could picture holding a world title. I can only assume their decision to underpay wrestlers is biting them in the arse, with the better prospects all ending up in AEW. If that's the case, ha. Maybe reassess how you treat your wrestlers, TKO. 

[TAFKA Jonny Vegas]

I don't think WWE care who goes to AEW and to be honest I don't think they have to.

I think they've realised that WWE as a brand will sell out shows all over the world no matter who's on the card. 

Very few people have or will move one way or the other between AEW and WWE and be a significant "needle mover".

Look at the star power of TNA in it's peak, they never even came close to laying a glove on WWE - yet they're still the closest to having done so in nearly 3 decades now.

Realistically even if Roman, Brock, Orton, or all 3 at once went to AEW, it wouldn't make any significant difference to either company's numbers, other than wage bills.

So if they have the choice of paying a Will Ospreay big money to "jump ship" or just sign some random guy and put them into NXT and see how they do, they'll do that.

Edited Wednesday at 11:37 PM by TAFKA Jonny Vegas

[tiger_rick]

8 hours ago, TAFKA Jonny Vegas said:

I don't think WWE care who goes to AEW and to be honest I don't think they have to.

In what sense? I doubt WWE worry that Will Ospreay went to AEW instead of them, for instance but, they clearly do care who works for AEW because it's easily been their biggest provider of talent for the last four years. Resigning Cody Rhodes was a major factor in their turnaround in business. CM Punk is a major factor in maintaining it. Pent and Royce Keys are important people on their TV right now. They have/had a clear interest in plenty of people who went to AEW or were established by AEW - as they should.

8 hours ago, TAFKA Jonny Vegas said:

I think they've realised that WWE as a brand will sell out shows all over the world no matter who's on the card. 

They do now. They didn't a few years ago. They possibly won't in a few more years. Wrestling changes all the time as talent come and go and fans come and go. It's a solid business overall, clearly but, it's also a business receiving a hell of a lot of money in rights deals that have to maintain their worth so ups and downs will definitely come.

8 hours ago, TAFKA Jonny Vegas said:

Realistically even if Roman, Brock, Orton, or all 3 at once went to AEW, it wouldn't make any significant difference to either company's numbers, other than wage bills.

That would make a huge difference to both. I don't disagree too much with your overall point but I think this completely misses the point that people still tune in to watch big stars. Roman is clearly the biggest. He's going nowhere, except Hollywood, but, he'd pique massive amounts of interest in another company and be a major blow to the rep of WWE. 

They've done a fantastic job of making the company seem like the star over the last couple of decades, and the letters WWE are definitely the industry standard, but no matter how much they would like to claim it's the only draw or that it's an ensemble cast, there is no doubt that John Cena was their most important talent for 15 years, that Vince finally getting Roman Reigns right was the catalyst for their upturn in business, that signing Cody Rhodes was the key to two hugely successful WrestleManias. 

If Roman, Cody and Rollins all popped up on AEW, there'd be a massive change in the narrative, in the eye balls on AEW and in the questions asked of WWE and TKO. It's never going to happen, so all hypothetical but let's never pretend the wrestlers don't matter.

[RedTwoster]

9 hours ago, TAFKA Jonny Vegas said:

Look at the star power of TNA in it's peak, they never even came close to laying a glove on WWE - yet they're still the closest to having done so in nearly 3 decades now.

Is that really true, though? TNA never felt anywhere near a legitimate competitor to WWE. AEW, on the other hand, has managed to maintain a core audience; many of whom seem to have stopped watching WWE completely. In addition, they compete for wrestlers on a level playing field - heck, it might even be balanced slightly towards AEW given that they pay wrestlers more now. While a handful of wrestlers did indeed choose TNA over WWE (the most notable of which being Christian Cage and Sting - with the former only doing so in the short term before jumping back) it really wasn't common. Because of how we watch these things being different now, it's difficult to compare viewership but I don't think TNA had a chance in hell of selling out Wembley or of holding big audience PPV shows in the way AEW does.