Raw Discussion 12th March 2012

[Dirty Eddie]

The CM Punk charcater that was selling record amounts of merch and getting everyone talking was the pissed-off, anti-establishment guy. The minute he re-signed with the company (thus ending his "renegade" status) and found himself in a regular, boring feud with Del Rio he was miles away from the character that the fans were going ape-shit for a few months earlier.

He definitely wasn't selling "record amounts of merch" before he re-signed with the company.

 

Yeah, fair enough, totally got my time-line mixed up there trying to over-simplify.

 

Essentially my point is that it was the red hot character that he had after his RAW promos that was responsible for selling all those new tee's a few weeks later. He was on fire for a while and it all died far too quickly.

[tiger_rick]

I still maintain that having Punk return only a week or so after MITB was one of the worst moves WWE could have made. What they effectively did by having him sign a contract with little to no explanation was put a buffer on his unpredictability. I feel they could have picked up a lot of momentum by having a free agent, Punk do things outside of the company that were totally beyond expectation whilst holding onto the belt.

 

Punk doing stuff outside the company wouldn't have helped buyrates or TV ratings inside the company. Internet discussion doesn't always equal money. Of course, Punk being on WWE TV didn't help the buyrates or TV ratings either, but they weren't to know that at the time. They do now, like, and they're persisting with him, fair play to them.

It depends what he was doing outside the company. If it was John Cena in the angle, you know he'd be on mainstream talk shows, having his picture taking with baseball stars and the like. if they coulda got Punk into the mainstream, it would have been really good publicity. Some sort of "real world champ" campaign with celebs holding up banners and shit would've got the missing fans interested. Maybe.

 

Kevin Nash is a big internet favourite

 

He meant UKFF favourite. Except not the whole UKFF. Just the bit who dare post.

 

Nash's title run was still shit.

[IANdrewDiceClay]

Yeah actually. Its been a really decent fued that has utilised a lot of the midcard roster. I'm enjoying it and I know I'm not the only one who think so. In fact some of the best moments of TV recently are related to this match; e.g. Santinos US title win.

Its one giant cluster fuck, filled with moments to try and gain interest (i.e. Santino's title win). There are 12 wrestlers, who shovelled into a feud so they can get two authority figures over. You might be enjoying it. I actually think its half decent, but this isnt meant to be selling anything. Its a stop gab feud for all the wrestlers involved. The fact all of them are in it just so they can get a payday should set the alarm bells ringing.

 

How arrogant are you to think that if someone has a belief / reason for something happening it's a "excuse". I'm not making excuses for Punk, Im giving you my opinion as to a contibuting factor to a ratings drop.. In fact I was preatty clear when I originally said "not saying Punk is amazing or anything..."

 

Absalutely Punk needs to look at himself... but so do the WWE. They pulled the Nash fued out from under his feet, had him buddy up to Triple H when his fued with him was getting REALLY hot, dropped the conspiracy angle and hes not even involved with the possibility of ousting Ace who he has been warring with since the MITB PPV.

Again, read what I'm saying. If the Nash feud and the Triple H feud were as hot as you say, they wouldnt have pulled the plug on them. They dont just pull the plug on feuds for no reason. You seem to be ignoring that. Does it not for a second make you think that this angle bombed because people didnt like his look, arrogant delivery and shit insider catchphrases directed at 2% of the audience? That might be fine when your working all the Drill Hall and your Alex Shane, but not when you are trying to sell SummerSlam.

 

Nice to know you have such a low opinion on the intelligence of wrestling fans.

 

Maybe YOUR programmed that way, but not everyone. Personally I do get turned off when a storyline doesn't make sense or if something contradicts a previous event. Hell, several people on here regular come online and bitch / complain when something dosen't make sense. Just because it's wrestling, dosen't mean we have to settle for lower standard story telling. Maybe YOUR willing to accept that, but that's YOU.

You're the one banging your head against a wall trying to convince yourself the 12 man tag team match is worth a shit to the average viewer. You can try and accept whatever you like, but the ratings patterns show people only watch to see star names. I know working in British Wrestling, you probably had that idea sucked from your head, in favour of "spots and controversy" and probably thinking fake injury angles and working the boyz!~ is the thing people want to see, but WWE targets a casual audience. Do you really think the average American is going to buy into stuff like that when there is something else on? When you have an audience of 4 million and almost 900,000 turn over when you are on, that doesnt make for good reading.

 

Every single week? Hardly. Jericho only just came back and Punk has been moved down the pecking order (justifiably or not). How can you say "they are the stars they push every single week" when they clearly arn't the main focus right now? The Triple H / Undertaker fued and the Rock / Cena fued are taking centre stage, so its not surprising the Punk / Jericho fued is taking a hit.

So you think you have to be in the main event to be the main focus? They are constantly in the top of the hour slot, which is SUPPOSED to gain the most audience every week. They give them the best time slot. What more do they want?

 

Ultimately regardless of whos to blame, WWE have turned the WWE title match into a midcard filler contest... and that is a real shame.

And that wasnt the plan in July. Things changed based on interest. If something isnt seemingly popular, they have no choice. The belt shouldnt even be in this feud.

[Daaaaaad!]

So you think you have to be in the main event to be the main focus? They are constantly in the top of the hour slot, which is SUPPOSED to gain the most audience every week. They give them the best time slot. What more do they want?

If that's true, how come Cena and Orton are never put in that position? Orton's nearly always in the first match after the opening segment (although that seems to be Sheamus's slot now) and Cena's always at the top and bottom of the show. If they were looking for someone to gain the most audience, why not the most visible stars?

[IANdrewDiceClay]

If that's true, how come Cena and Orton are never put in that position? Orton's nearly always in the first match after the opening segment (although that seems to be Sheamus's slot now) and Cena's always at the top and bottom of the show. If they were looking for someone to gain the most audience, why not the most visible stars?

Because people will watch when Cena and Orton are on. They are proven ratings draws. They want to put CM Punk (the WWE champion, remember) in the position where the most eyes will be on him. TNA does it as well. WCW used to do it. If you put Cena on the part of the show where everyone will be watching, his fanbase will have less reason to stick around for the rest of the show. Cena and Orton dont need to be protected by being put in the most viewed timeslots.

[King Pitcos]

If it was John Cena in the angle, you know he'd be on mainstream talk shows, having his picture taking with baseball stars and the like. if they coulda got Punk into the mainstream, it would have been really good publicity. Some sort of "real world champ" campaign with celebs holding up banners and shit would've got the missing fans interested. Maybe.

If it was John Cena in the angle, the baseball commentators wouldn't be laughing at him and going "he's the world champion?" It's one thing for mainstream people to laugh at wrestling, it's another for them to laugh at someone for looking like such a poor example of a wrestler. In that respect, putting Punk in the mainstream for that week or two actually did a bit of damage to wrestling's credibility because people thought if someone like that is the champion, wrestling must be on its arse.

 

But even if there had been a ton of mainstream coverage and all positive, it was understandable that they'd strike while the iron was hot. SummerSlam was around the corner and when the heat was on Punk like that, it wasn't on anyone else in WWE. Even if they'd gone with Cena vs Mysterio as the SummerSlam main event to crown a new champion, and Punk saying he'd be in the crowd for it, people would've still thought it was too soon.

[mickfan]

I personally couldnt give a shit about the 12-man-tag. All the participants are being shoehorned into the match which will be secondary to what Ace and Teddy are doing outside the ring. The fact Ryder and McGillicutty are petitioning for places on either team tell me this match isn't worth shit.

[ItsClobberingTime]

How exactly have Santino, Otunga and Mark Henry been 'shoehorned' in..?

[Dirty Eddie]

If it was John Cena in the angle, the baseball commentators wouldn't be laughing at him and going "he's the world champion?" It's one thing for mainstream people to laugh at wrestling, it's another for them to laugh at someone for looking like such a poor example of a wrestler. In that respect, putting Punk in the mainstream for that week or two actually did a bit of damage to wrestling's credibility because people thought if someone like that is the champion, wrestling must be on its arse.

 

I think you are putting far more credence into that baseball thing that it truly deserves. Absolutely any time you see a wrestler on normal telly someone takes the piss out of them. Whether it's "fake" digs, laughing about spandex, mad haircuts, all that pretending to fight nonsense etc... Plus, it's hardly like CM Punk is the only non-muscled-up guy who been sent out into the real world representing wrestlers. Wasn't Miz on about a thousand shows around Mania time last year? Surely the bloke who looks about 12 having fun on Blue Peter is more damning of the state of "hard men in wrestling" (which seems to be what you are looking for) than Punk getting a little mocking from some commentators?

 

Add in the fact that when wearing normal clothes, Punk looks no weedier or less hard than Bret Hart, HBK, Flair, Miz, Orton etc would in similar situations. Hell, Rey Misterio has been used to publicise WWE while working as WWE Champ, if that didn't ruin the credibility of wrestling forever then nothing will!

[LaGoosh]

The thing is Pitcos always brings up the baseball commentators incident. It's getting quite tedious. I've never even heard anyone else on this board (or any other wrestling message board) mention it.

[IANdrewDiceClay]

Meltzer:

Almost every veteran wrestler (except Bret Hart & Austin) thinks Punk is shit. Don't ask me why, but from the first interview, all I heard was how it wouldn't draw money and thus far except for the one night in Chicago, Punk hasn't proved them wrong.

 

I think it's the deal where the average guy on the street sees him and would be like those baseball announcers whose immediate response was "He's the heavyweight champion?"

[tiger_rick]

Meltzer:

Almost every veteran wrestler (except Bret Hart & Austin) thinks Punk is shit. Don't ask me why, but from the first interview, all I heard was how it wouldn't draw money and thus far except for the one night in Chicago, Punk hasn't proved them wrong.

 

I think it's the deal where the average guy on the street sees him and would be like those baseball announcers whose immediate response was "He's the heavyweight champion?"

As if that matters though? How many champs in the last 15 years have been that sort of size? Punk, Hardy, Misterio, Bret, HBK, Eddie, Benoit, Jericho, etc. Some people still think wrestlers are all steroid freaks. It's ignorance. It's no basis to judge anything on.

 

The fact he doesn't draw isn't to do with his size.

[King Pitcos]

If it was John Cena in the angle, the baseball commentators wouldn't be laughing at him and going "he's the world champion?" It's one thing for mainstream people to laugh at wrestling, it's another for them to laugh at someone for looking like such a poor example of a wrestler. In that respect, putting Punk in the mainstream for that week or two actually did a bit of damage to wrestling's credibility because people thought if someone like that is the champion, wrestling must be on its arse.

 

I think you are putting far more credence into that baseball thing that it truly deserves. Absolutely any time you see a wrestler on normal telly someone takes the piss out of them. Whether it's "fake" digs, laughing about spandex, mad haircuts, all that pretending to fight nonsense etc...

Re-read what I wrote. It's common for people to make digs about wrestlers and wrestling, yes, but when they're laughing because someone looks like a poor excuse for a wrestler, it's a new low.

 

Add in the fact that when wearing normal clothes, Punk looks no weedier or less hard than Bret Hart, HBK, Flair, Miz, Orton etc would in similar situations. Hell, Rey Misterio has been used to publicise WWE while working as WWE Champ, if that didn't ruin the credibility of wrestling forever then nothing will!

Rey Mysterio looks like a wrestling character. Most of those names above look like wrestlers, or at least presentable human beings. They all at least look like WWE world champion wages are enough to buy some shower gel. CM Punk looks like a smackhead pisstramp.

 

The thing is Pitcos always brings up the baseball commentators incident. It's getting quite tedious. I've never even heard anyone else on this board (or any other wrestling message board) mention it.

Lots of people on this board have mentioned it. A lot of people on other boards probably don't, because they're exactly the kind of "Punk can do no wrong" mongs who get upset by it.

[IANdrewDiceClay]

I dont think its his size either. I do think his appearance isnt right though, as well as the fact his character very off putting. I mean, they've told him to shave his beard, so that seems to be their way of addressing it part of it. This audience is used to John Cena and Randy Orton. Bret Hart had a great look. He stood out with his stringy hair, sunglasses, leather jacket and two colours that everyone thought of when they thought of him. Shawn Michaels dressed how his character should have dressed. Flair's look and the way he carried himself still inspires wrestlers today. Rey Mysterio is a superhero. Jeff Hardy is a colourful daredevil loved by girls and teenages and he has this free spirit type of character which makes him (or at least made him) likable to the people watching. And this never happened over night. Mysterio used to wear dungerees and no mask, and nobody was into him. Bret only wore sunglasses because he was a nervous wreck. Shawn Michaels had a breakdown and became a very bitter person because he bombed in 1996. Jeff Hardy took years to become a top level wrestler. No reason why CM Punk cant become a star people want to see every week. But he has to drop this off putting attitude and eliminate the things from his look and character that alienate the fans every week.

 

Jericho had the same problem. I remember when Jericho was dressed like a chef and had red tints in his hair leading into WrestleMania X8. Jericho was booked fairly shite leading up to that PPV, but it just asks for people not to have sympathy for you when you look like he did at the time.

 

I think Punk's looks decreased personally. Look at these pictures:

His long hair and beard looked far better than his receeding hairline and baggy eyed look.

[Dirty Eddie]

Rey Mysterio looks like a wrestling character. Most of those names above look like wrestlers, or at least presentable human beings. They all at least look like WWE world champion wages are enough to buy some shower gel. CM Punk looks like a smackhead pisstramp.

 

So if looking like a wrestling character is the problem, how does that excuse Miz, who looks like a completely regular bloke (actually, if anything he looks like a pretty-boy, and not even slightly hard or intimidating)?

 

A tatoo'd up bloke with piercings who looks like he might be in a metal band or something is a far "harder" looking character than Miz the reality TV star or Rey Mysterio the masked midget. It's clear to me that YOU think that Punk looks like a pikey cunt, so you are transferring your own impression of him onto everyone else. Punk looks no more or less a wrestler (in street clothes) than most of those I mentioned.

 

Does Jeff Hardy look like a tough guy? What about Shawn Michaels?