WWE Ratings/Buyrates 2011

[PepperPlunge]

And Vince didn't have higher ups pulling his strings, like when WCW positioned their whole 1999 business model around a NBC deal which got pulled out from under them. Which is ALWAYS forgotten about when the story of WCW is told. WWFE in 2001 lost more than WCW did under Bischoff.

 

What's the NBC story? I'd imagine it was told in Death of WCW but I haven't read that for a while now.

[IANdrewDiceClay]

And Vince didn't have higher ups pulling his strings, like when WCW positioned their whole 1999 business model around a NBC deal which got pulled out from under them. Which is ALWAYS forgotten about when the story of WCW is told. WWFE in 2001 lost more than WCW did under Bischoff.

 

What's the NBC story? I'd imagine it was told in Death of WCW but I haven't read that for a while now.

The reason Hogan was taken off TV (remember when he retired?) and the reason the nWo was put back together was so WCW (very much like WWF did in the 80s with Saturday Nights Main Event), could debut monthly specials on NBC with a massive angle. Everyone predicted that it would be the most watched wrestling show in years. It would have done far bigger numbers than Raw did. WCW on NBC would have been massive and might have put it back on the tracks. But alas, the Turner people didn't like it. Thats when Bischoff was fucked. He'd put all his energy into this deal and got it taken away. The NBC thing was the last hope do crack the mainstream that WWF had in its pocket. Bischoff resorted to celebrity involvement after that. He was a huge financial mistake, but he was desperate. Desperate men do daft things.

[tiger_rick]

You say they chucked it away for "no good reason", but there obviously was a good reason because there was a far better product on the same time as them which had tapped into a far bigger market than they had. That "massive viewership" had a lot to do with WCW having three hours and WWF only having two hours. Everyone watched WCW for that first hour. Not everyone stopped to watch for the following two though.

There wasn't a good reason, it was ego. I can't believe someone as smart as you would really believe this shit you've typed. There was no reason for WCW to go the route the did. They had an audience, they had lots of revenue streams, they were coming off the back of a highly profitable year. They didn't have to beat the WWF. There was more than enough room for the two of them to co-exist. Anyone with a business mind would have accepted that situation, counted his money and made sure he was in the right position when the opportunity came along again. Instead they wasted time and money on short term fixes to a product that wasn't broken, just tired.

 

WCW's number from early 1999 are phenomenal. Vince would suck anyone for those numbers. Just makes the decline even sadder.

 

The average ratings take into account the unopposed first hour I think is the point being made.

I wasn't dismissing that openign hour. Hence why "won" was in quotes in the first place. Regardless of who "won" each night, WCW still had that many viewers tune in over a year. They had lots of people tuning in, full arenas and decent buyrates. Which makes the panic pretty dumb.

[IANdrewDiceClay]

There was no reason for WCW to go the route the did. They had an audience, they had lots of revenue streams, they were coming off the back of a highly profitable year. They didn't have to beat the WWF.

What your forgetting/ignoring is that Bischoff wasn't the owner of WCW. Wrestling went mainstream in 1998, thanks to Austin's popularity. When WCW was on top, they weren't being featured on ABC and on the cover of the TV Guide. Austin was. When WWF went mainstream, Turner and Time Warner started asking questions. They brought in different higher ups to work along side Bischoff. Number could wasnt an option. If Turner and Time Warner cared only about a steady ratings margin and simple television, they wouldn't have spunked over a million per year for Ferrera and Russo. WCW wanted to beat WWF, and Bischoff was under intense pressure throughout 1998. Vince owned WWF, Bischoff had to answer to people who didn't understand wrestling asking why WCW were losing to a company with far less resources. Its easy to say "they should have concentrated on their own business". Thats not how it worked. They were in direct competition weekly. It was a war they were in. WWF was better than WCW. He either had to address this (which he tried to do by getting WCW a contract with NBC to expose them to the whole of America) or he was in danger of losing his job. Which he did.

 

WCW's number from early 1999 are phenomenal. Vince would suck anyone for those numbers. Just makes the decline even sadder.

Because business isn't as hot as it was in 1999. The fad was still running, and standards were far higher. That has nothing to do with anything.

[Magnum]

Is it just a case of the product needing to be 'cooler' so that it's something you wouldn't mind watching with your friends?

Essentially, yes. And even at its height, wrestling wasn't cool enough for anyone to think they could pull off a pay-per-view on a Saturday night. Doing it now would be commercial suicide.

 

Why not a friday, then? They won't often be competing directly with boxing of UFC, and nor would it be on a school/work night for most. Obviously it's outside the box, but it's becoming clear that they're going to need to get away from the traditional formula in order to sustain the PPV market.

 

In answer to the original question, as PITCOS has said, it pretty much is a case of making it cooler, but I think they'd also need to start stressing the social aspect of it on TV - back in the Attitude days, you'd often see groups of a dozen or more young lads lined up with catchphrases or wrestlers' names written on their chests. It looked a right laugh going to a RAW taping or live show back then, and similarly with the 'JR is WAR' frat parties they used to feature. It wouldn't take a lot to have a throwaway 30-second bit on a PPV taping of a group of lads getting together to watch the show - maybe make it the prize in a competition to see who can throw the biggest Summerslam party, or something.

 

Of course, this is all speculative and hypothetical, and without opening the whole 'PG/sponsorship' can of worms it might be hard to make wrestling appeal to groups of young lads in that way again within the current constraints. As I said before though, the absolute paramount concern is putting on a strong, consistently entertaining TV show to build a fanbase, and that's something they've struggled with for years now.

[tiger_rick]

What your forgetting/ignoring is that Bischoff wasn't the owner of WCW.

I'm doing neither. When they were flying, he was in full charge. When he crashed and burned, he wasn't. According to some. He had full control. It was his vision, he signed the cheques, he made the calls.

 

Wrestling went mainstream in 1998, thanks to Austin's popularity. When WCW was on top, they weren't being featured on ABC and on the cover of the TV Guide. Austin was. When WWF went mainstream, Turner and Time Warner started asking questions. They brought in different higher ups to work along side Bischoff. Number could wasnt an option. If Turner and Time Warner cared only about a steady ratings margin and simple television, they wouldn't have spunked over a million per year for Ferrera and Russo. WCW wanted to beat WWF, and Bischoff was under intense pressure throughout 1998. Vince owned WWF, Bischoff had to answer to people who didn't understand wrestling asking why WCW were losing to a company with far less resources. Its easy to say "they should have concentrated on their own business". Thats not how it worked. They were in direct competition weekly. It was a war they were in.

Perhaps that's true. Perhaps they were focused on winning at all costs. The Russo/Ferrara thing doesn't stand up as evidence. They didn't go looking for them purely because they were losing, it was becausen they were losing badly, hemorrhaging money and losing viewers by the thousands each week. Had they been in the fight, which they were until February 1999, who knows whether they'd have been happy. It wasn't all about Ted turner at that point. A happy workforce and healthy profit would have gone a long way.

 

WCW's number from early 1999 are phenomenal. Vince would suck anyone for those numbers. Just makes the decline even sadder.

Because business isn't as hot as it was in 1999. The fad was still running, and standards were far higher. That has nothing to do with anything.

Precisely. Business was hot. It was so hot, the company in the #2 spot were getting ratings, attendances and buyrates that WWE hasn't been able to dream of for 10 years. Thanks for illustrating my point.

[IANdrewDiceClay]

I'm doing neither. When they were flying, he was in full charge. When he crashed and burned, he wasn't. According to some. He had full control. It was his vision, he signed the cheques, he made the calls.

Of course he wasnt in full charge. He was spending Turners money, and had to answer to several executives. But as with everything, you get far more leeway when you are successful.

 

They didn't go looking for them purely because they were losing, it was becausen they were losing badly, hemorrhaging money and losing viewers by the thousands each week. Had they been in the fight, which they were until February 1999, who knows whether they'd have been happy. It wasn't all about Ted turner at that point. A happy workforce and healthy profit would have gone a long way.

WCW made a DESPERATE plea by bringing in Russo and Ferrera. If they wanted to balance the shows out and try and steady the books they'd have brought in a Jerry Jarrett or even someone like Mike Graham. Or Kevin Sullivan (they did that when they were desperate). Instead they bought Russo and Ferrera. They had the reputation of being responsible for WWF's saviours at the time. WCW bought into the hype. Ratings were on the decline, sure, but the product was definitely salvageable, as evidence by the Halloween Havoc buyrate upon Russo's debut. If Time Warner didn't want to be in the game with WWF anymore they'd have moved the timeslot, dropped Thunder and brought in someone with experience at leveling a promotions revenue stream out. Instead they brought back Hall, Nash, Hart and Jarrett and bought two writers on high 6 figure deals to compete with WWF. Turner hated Vince. The reason Monday Nitro was born wasnt because of healthy competition. It was because he wanted McMahon fucked.

 

Precisely. Business was hot. It was so hot, the company in the #2 spot were getting ratings, attendances and buyrates that WWE hasn't been able to dream of for 10 years. Thanks for illustrating my point.

I wasn't illustrating your point. I was bringing to your attention how irreverent your point was. WWF was doing in the 6.0 region and occasionally hitting 7.0's. WCW was doing three's for a three hour show on a Monday Night. That audience isn't there today, so its a mute point. Thats why there is only one game in town.

[tiger_rick]

Of course they were desperate in late 1999, he'd just watched Bischoff turn 5's into 3's within 6 months. I'd imagine he was fucking apoplectic by that point.

 

Precisely. Business was hot. It was so hot, the company in the #2 spot were getting ratings, attendances and buyrates that WWE hasn't been able to dream of for 10 years. Thanks for illustrating my point.

I wasn't illustrating your point. I was bringing to your attention how irreverent your point was. WWF was doing in the 6.0 region and occasionally hitting 7.0's. WCW was doing three's for a three hour show on a Monday Night. That audience isn't there today, so its a mute point. Thats why there is only one game in town.

It's "moot" and it isn't. The business was at an all time high. Being second in that time period meant drawing more money than every company at every other time in history, except one. So no reason to panic whatsoever.

[IANdrewDiceClay]

Of course they were desperate in late 1999, he'd just watched Bischoff turn 5's into 3's within 6 months. I'd imagine he was fucking apoplectic by that point.

Again ignoring how hot WWF's product was, and the need for a change (a change Bischoff wasnt allowed to make due to the NBC deal being pulled from him and him having to answer to people he didn't have to answer to during the hot years of 95-97).

[tiger_rick]

Of course they were desperate in late 1999, he'd just watched Bischoff turn 5's into 3's within 6 months. I'd imagine he was fucking apoplectic by that point.

Again ignoring how hot WWF's product was

Come off it. The numbers are there to show that people wanted to watch both companies when they were both worth watching. The gap in late 1998 and early 1999 was tiny. A small split in a massive, massive audience.

 

and the need for a change (a change Bischoff wasnt allowed to make due to the NBC deal being pulled from him and him having to answer to people he didn't have to answer to during the hot years of 95-97).

Why couldn't he do what he wanted to do on NBC on Nitro?

[PowerButchi]

Turner Standards and Practices. Despite the fact TNT and TBS was on basic cable and so not regulated, Turner's Standards and Practices were probably even stricter than what would be found on Network TV.

 

I imagine you'd be about to say foreign object on NBC, for instance.

[IANdrewDiceClay]

Come off it. The numbers are there to show that people wanted to watch both companies when they were both worth watching. The gap in late 1998 and early 1999 was tiny. A small split in a massive, massive audience.

WWF in 1997 was far better than WCW in 1998. WCW had the momentum though. Just because you are worth watching doesn't mean people will watch you. In fact thats never the case in wrestling. And 1999 was when the audience completely swelled. Is when Austin was on Nash Bridges and Celebrity Deathmatch, Rock was presenting awards at the MTV awards, Sable was in Playboy. WWF was cool. It was in tune with pop culture. WCW wasn't.

 

Why couldn't he do what he wanted to do on NBC on Nitro?

Because they needed to be exposed to a far bigger audience. And that Nitro would have garnered a far bigger audience than anything any promotion had in years. The NBC deal was massive. It was compared to WWF getting BBC1 to show Capital Carnage. That was the plan throughout the second half of 1998. They were focused on that, they structured their TV towards than and they got it taken away. Wrestling promotions need a kick into the mainstream if they are to exploit it. WWF needed Mr. T, Cyndi Lauper and MTV in 1985. They couldnt have done it with Hogan alone. WWF needed to regain credibility in 1998, so they got in Tyson to give Austin the rub. WCW needed that NBC deal at a time when they weren't as cool as WWF.

 

I'm not denying Bischoff made some terrible decisions. I'm not even arguing that it was time for him to be sacked. But WCW was swimming well upstream in 1998.

[Lawlerm]

September will always be a poor month as Monday Night Football starts

[PowerButchi]

September will always be a poor month as Monday Night Football starts

 

If you think it's poor now, wait until December.

[King Pitcos]

Why not a friday, then? They won't often be competing directly with boxing of UFC, and nor would it be on a school/work night for most.

Because it's not a school/work night. Surely the reason wrestling positioned itself on Sunday nights is that it's the night people haven't got anything better to do. In the fratboy examples you've mentioned a fair few times, they'd be off at proper parties with girls on Fridays and Saturdays.

 

In answer to the original question, as PITCOS has said, it pretty much is a case of making it cooler, but I think they'd also need to start stressing the social aspect of it on TV - back in the Attitude days, you'd often see groups of a dozen or more young lads lined up with catchphrases or wrestlers' names written on their chests. It looked a right laugh going to a RAW taping or live show back then, and similarly with the 'JR is WAR' frat parties they used to feature. It wouldn't take a lot to have a throwaway 30-second bit on a PPV taping of a group of lads getting together to watch the show - maybe make it the prize in a competition to see who can throw the biggest Summerslam party, or something.

I like that idea a lot, the biggest party competitions, but I don't see it making much of a difference. And they probably don't want the wrestling associated with drunken mongs anyway.

 

Of course, this is all speculative and hypothetical, and without opening the whole 'PG/sponsorship' can of worms it might be hard to make wrestling appeal to groups of young lads in that way again within the current constraints. As I said before though, the absolute paramount concern is putting on a strong, consistently entertaining TV show to build a fanbase, and that's something they've struggled with for years now.

They lost the ability to appeal to groups of young lads well before the current constraints -- that inability to keep that audience is as big a reason for the direction change as Monotone's kill frenzy and Linda's political ambitions.