RIOT!

[Van Dammer]

Kudos, Whiskey for fighting, at times, a one man fight for the causes of clear-minded rationale and honest debate against a barrage of anger, trolling, idiocy and wilful ignorance. Great job.

 

In your opinion. Also, blowing your own trumpet in such a way is really lame, especially as you added nothing to any conversation with that post.

[Halitosis Romantic]

In your opinion. Also, blowing your own trumpet in such a way is really lame, especially as you added nothing to any conversation with that post.

 

Also, the kind of shit that makes me shy away from getting too involved in liberal activism - "we're right, because we're so smart and clear-minded... you know, the educated ones? Like us."

[DJ Kris]

Yeah, the Cameron love-in is bizarre if it's occurring. He was on holiday, delayed his return as long as possible until it was clear it would look utterly ridiculous if it didn't come back, recalled parliament with no true agenda or direction, then approved the use of rubber bullets and water cannons that the Chief of Police is saying they don't even need and won't use. He's been just as incompetent and bumbling as the rest of them.

There really isn't a Cameron love in though, just people saying that he's doing and saying the right things. As for his holiday, you're talking shit. He came back after the 2nd night of trouble, which seems fair enough to me. One night and you can be forgiven for thinking it might be over, most riots are. In this case it clearly wasn't over so he came back. Most people don't cut their holidays short unless they absolutely have to.

[PowerButchi]

Also, the kind of shit that makes me shy away from getting too involved in liberal activism - "we're right, because we're so smart and clear-minded... you know, the educated ones? Like us."

 

Spot on. It's difficult to be liberal when so many of us are overly earnest, holier than thou, sanctimonious, "I'm super duper educated. Fear my massive vocab" cockends. That's why I don't discuss politics with people anymore.

[bobbins]

Oh come on, bobbins, you're better than that. He's been entirely wrong in this thread, even you can see that. My politics are about as far from Happ's as it's possible to get, you just make yourself look stupid with a comment like that.

 

If you're going to completely ignore all the extremely patient and intelligent arguments in this thread, then you might as well stay away.

I think you're normally a good guy, albeit exposed your true colours a little in classic liberal fashion of late, but I honestly believe you've behaved shamefully in this thread. I've read every word of the thread. Yes, there have been patient and intelligent arguments on both sides of the debate, but none from you. Whiskey has stood out superbly despite being under constant attack from all sides, even being goaded by demands for flawless immediate answers to the riots in a disgraceful display of pack-distraction by the rubber-bullet-brigade. Applaud MickeyEDL with your darts all you like, you guys sure proved him "entirely wrong".

 

Look back to what started off the discussion over the use of "scum". It was spurs4life, angry about people with no respect for human life, people that aren't worth engaging because they can't be reached or shown a better way, scum to the core. I like spurs4life, so I totally think he was worth engaging in discussion about that. I think it's worthwhile to try and foster more productive attitudes, and look at the wider picture. You and many others have done little but try to distract from honest debate, in order to justify your impotent fury.

 

I understand the desire to depoliticise this issue from people whose politics don't have any answers, people whose politics are the direct cause of social collapse. It's times like this that you need to ask yourself if you're really a liberal, or if it's just a tag you use to feel good about yourself and to hide your true conservatism from others but mainly from yourself.

 

That just reads like "People don't agree with me so they're thick dickheads" which I thought you were better than, to be honest.

That's not my intention. I think people have let their anger get the better of them.

[Duke]

That's not my intention. I think people have let their anger get the better of them.

I'd agree with that. I just think we're talking about different people.

[Halitosis Romantic]

I think you're normally a good guy, albeit exposed your true colours a little in classic liberal fashion of late, but I honestly believe you've behaved shamefully in this thread. I've read every word of the thread. Yes, there have been patient and intelligent arguments on both sides of the debate, but none from you. Whiskey has stood out superbly despite being under constant attack from all sides, even being goaded by demands for flawless immediate answers to the riots in a disgraceful display of pack-distraction by the rubber-bullet-brigade. Applaud MickeyEDL with your darts all you like, you guys sure proved him "entirely wrong".

 

Look back to what started off the discussion over the use of "scum". It was spurs4life, angry about people with no respect for human life, people that aren't worth engaging because they can't be reached or shown a better way, scum to the core. I like spurs4life, so I totally think he was worth engaging in discussion about that. I think it's worthwhile to try and foster more productive attitudes, and look at the wider picture. You and many others have done little but try to distract from honest debate, in order to justify your impotent fury.

 

I understand the desire to depoliticise this issue from people whose politics don't have any answers, people whose politics are the direct cause of social collapse. It's times like this that you need to ask yourself if you're really a liberal, or if it's just a tag you use to feel good about yourself and to hide your true conservatism from others but mainly from yourself.

 

 

That's not my intention. I think people have let their anger get the better of them.

 

Ahhhh... THAT argument. If you aren't the most liberal person you could be under all circumstances, and maintain a solid party line of staunch acceptance, then you are not a liberal at all. That, my friend, is the reason for internal weakness in the Democratic Party, the Labour party, the union movement, and for all I am aware, the communist party. There is a distinct lack of pragmatism in the left, and a great deal of ideological rigidity. Yes, social circumstances need to be improved. Yes, spending is the engine which will drive recovery. Indeed, we ARE living in an unequal society, and a more egalitarian society is far more desirable. Most certainly, racism is a blight on society, as is the demonization of the 'lower classes'. However, there are times when one cannot be so stiffly doctrinaire, and yourself, Whiskey, and especially Framing June have failed to do anything but offer long-term answers that I think anyone on this forum that calls themselves liberal would have (and has) agreed with, outside of some of June's more outre concepts.

Edited August 10, 2011 by Adam Woodyatt

[Van Dammer]

http://live-news.sky.com/Event/London_riots

 

Fascinating reading today, my imagination may be running away reading it but I imagine the scene in court to be like in The Dark Knight where hundreds of mob members are trying to be processed at once.

 

Sky saying everyone so far has been remanded in custody, nobody granted bail, even for tiny thefts such as cakes.

Edited August 10, 2011 by Van Dammer

[LiamTheGreat]

I hope this isn't the case

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p...;postcount=7840

[TildeGuy~!]

[Richie Freebird]

Liberal'er than thou.

[buba3d]

superb

 

http://photoshoplooter.tumblr.com/

[bobbins]

Also, the kind of shit that makes me shy away from getting too involved in liberal activism - "we're right, because we're so smart and clear-minded... you know, the educated ones? Like us."

I don't mean to be patronising, but it's frustrating when there's so much active hostility to the mere desire for broader debate. Anyway, I've been praising Whiskey, not myself. I've lost any clear-mindedness I was striving for a few times in the face of Pitcos' trolling.

 

Ahhhh... THAT argument. If you aren't the most liberal person you could be under all circumstances, and maintain a solid party line of staunch acceptance, then you are not a liberal at all. That, my friend, is the reason for internal weakness in the Democratic Party, the Labour party, the union movement, and for all I am aware, the communist party. There is a distinct lack of pragmatism in the left, and a great deal of ideological rigidity. Yes, social circumstances need to be improved. Yes, spending is the engine which will drive recovery. Indeed, we ARE living in an unequal society, and a more egalitarian society is far more desirable. Most certainly, racism is a blight on society, as is the demonization of the 'lower classes'. However, there are times when one cannot be so stiffly doctrinaire, and yourself, Whiskey, and especially Framing June have failed to do anything but offer long-term answers that I think anyone on this forum that calls themselves liberal would have (and has) agreed with, outside of some of June's more outre concepts.

You make good points, but I disagree that there's been any ideological rigidity from myself or Whiskey. I certainly don't wish to promote a solid line of staunch acceptance.

 

I don't know how you can say that liberals would have agreed with our long-term answers. They've done the exact opposite, either ruthlessly attacking those opinions or desperately dismissing them. "Shut up! We can't discuss this now! People are stealing trainers!". According to self-proclaimed liberal LoKi, Whiskey1 has been entirely wrong throughout the entire thread. Doesn't quite add up, does it?

[Loki]

Ahhhh... THAT argument. If you aren't the most liberal person you could be under all circumstances, and maintain a solid party line of staunch acceptance, then you are not a liberal at all. That, my friend, is the reason for internal weakness in the Democratic Party, the Labour party, the union movement, and for all I am aware, the communist party. There is a distinct lack of pragmatism in the left, and a great deal of ideological rigidity. Yes, social circumstances need to be improved. Yes, spending is the engine which will drive recovery. Indeed, we ARE living in an unequal society, and a more egalitarian society is far more desirable. Most certainly, racism is a blight on society, as is the demonization of the 'lower classes'. However, there are times when one cannot be so stiffly doctrinaire, and yourself, Whiskey, and especially Framing June have failed to do anything but offer long-term answers that I think anyone on this forum that calls themselves liberal would have (and has) agreed with, outside of some of June's more outre concepts.

 

That's a very eloquent explanation of it, Adam. You bring in the tiniest element of common-sense and pragmatism into liberal politics and some loony labels you a Nazi. I really hate ideologues of any description, they are incapable of proper debate, and therefore in the long-term can contribute nothing to the betterment of society.

 

I've spent my life in support of the Lib Dems - when they were the Liberal Party, then the Alliance, I still have David Steel placards in the shed. But that doesn't mean I will blindly support every policy or decision that liberal politicians make, nor does it mean that I subscribe to a particular set of ideological conceits. They are just the party that is closest aligned, generally, to my beliefs.

 

For someone like dopper, though, apparently that's a betrayal of the cause. It's really quite sad.

[Halitosis Romantic]

I don't mean to be patronising, but it's frustrating when there's so much active hostility to the mere desire for broader debate. Anyway, I've been praising Whiskey, not myself. I've lost any clear-mindedness I was striving for a few times in the face of Pitcos' trolling.

 

 

You make good points, but I disagree that there's been any ideological rigidity from myself or Whiskey. I certainly don't wish to promote a solid line of staunch acceptance.

 

I don't know how you can say that liberals would have agreed with our long-term answers. They've done the exact opposite, either ruthlessly attacking those opinions or desperately dismissing them. "Shut up! We can't discuss this now! People are stealing trainers!". According to self-proclaimed liberal LoKi, Whiskey1 has been entirely wrong throughout the entire thread. Doesn't quite add up, does it?

 

The issue isn't about people being wrong - in terms of proposing solutions to the situation going forward, I think you were right. However, I don't recall hearing from either of you as to what you thought that the situation in the short-term should have been.