Paid Members ReturnOfTheMack Posted March 4, 2012 Paid Members Share Posted March 4, 2012 Has it failed? Serious question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loki Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 Of course it has! That's why we're all living in caves and eating grass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Devon Malcolm Posted March 4, 2012 Paid Members Share Posted March 4, 2012 I'm fucking sick of having to walk all the way to Dorking to get water as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vice Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 (edited) What did David Starkey say this time? he really is a vile little man with an inflated opinion of his own worth. Where do I begin? He; - right off the bat, insulted the two female panellists by saying they were thinking with their heart, as opposed to their head as men do; - called someone in the audience 'insolent' and then told the guy off for supposedly thinking his opinion is more valuable than others'; - derided doctors for supposedly having a piss-easy job - said that multiculturalism has eroded British values and nationalism - called it 'absurd' that, following the jailing of some Islamic militants over their extreme homophobia, he would be arrested if he called Islam a vile religion that has no place in society.  Was it the bit where he said people don't like to be free? I actually agree with some of the things Starkey said, to an extent. Firstly, we can't go around forcing "democracy" on people, like Blair. Secondly, I do think revolutions should be the people's, and what we class as humanitarian intervention usually becomes disastrous. There are ways to stop the violence in Syria without making it ten times worse. But then Starkey went on about some shit about how the French supposedly hate us, and have never been able to wash away the shame, over Britain fighting off the Nazis there. And he cited Iraq and Afghanistan as instances of where the people have apparently mistaken their liberators for conquerors. I don't even know where to start on that one.  See what you make of it all: http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01d0...eek_01_03_2012/  Fucking hell Vice, that was the most depressing post I've ever read on here. Living in some parts of America must be nightmarish. Well, they're just stories that I've found striking and/or shocking. America is a fascinating place. It's the world's richest and most powerful country, yet it's riddled with sexism, racism, homophobia and Third-World-style wealth inequality. Watching the ongoing Republican race for the Presidential nomination, it's an insane freak show. At the debates, the audiences have been cheering things like Texas executing more people than any other state, letting someone die if he doesn't have healthcare and Newt Gingrich's brusk responses when he supposedly couldn't see how he'd offended black people by saying they should demand pay cheques instead of food stamps. And the audiences have booed a soldier for being gay and Ron Paul for saying American foreign policy has been catastrophic and spawned hatred for us and that we shouldn't do to other countries what we wouldn't want them to do to us. Ron Paul's pretty amazing on that front. I can't think of any mainstream politician who is that brutally honest about how destructive and counter-productive American foreign policy is:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UryciFTWTP4  It's also interesting that America touts its freedom and democracy, yet is eroding peoples' civil liberties (Patriot Act, NYPD spying on Muslims), violently suppressing protests (Occupy), increasingly ghettoizing areas (closing down schools, trying to eliminate collective bargaining rights, voter ID laws) and acting in ways that overwhelmingly concentrate power within the top %1 (deregulation, tax cuts, Super-PACs, insider trading). All these things might be depressing, but I think they're also outrageous and stuff we should be very vocal about.  It's an oddly religious country, too, when you think about the massive uproars they have over women's rights and gay marriage, etc. Rick Santorum says shit like we should be living according to God's law, women shouldn't have abortions even if raped, women shouldn't serve in the military and Satan is attacking America’s institutions. Rick Perry even held a Christian rally to solve Texas' drought.  In relatively nicer news, though;  New Jersey governor Chris Christie is massively pissed off at the NYPD's religious profiling of and spying on Muslims. In the past, he's spoken out strongly against the paranoia and fearmongering over a Muslim colleague... And Chris Christie's a Republican!  The unemployment rate in the US is falling. It's currently 8.3%, its lowest in 3 years. Or, as Republicans call it, "Time to start a culture war over contraception." Edited March 4, 2012 by Vice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bashar Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 Oh dear. Â The era of capitalism did not start when people starting trading. Â Obviously 'failure' is a subjective term. Capital-Liberalism was a progression from the feudalism that preceded it, Marx very explicitly recognised that. It's a failure in the sense that it cannot succeed as a permanent, stable 'end of history' system. I think that's becoming abundantly clear. Â How much has capitalism done in terms of providing people with easy access to clean water, Gladstone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Devon Malcolm Posted March 4, 2012 Paid Members Share Posted March 4, 2012 How much has capitalism done in terms of providing people with easy access to clean water, Gladstone? Â I never said it was clean. Never been to Dorking, have you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bashar Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 How much has capitalism done in terms of providing people with easy access to clean water, Gladstone? Â I never said it was clean. Never been to Dorking, have you? Â Never had the pleasure. Apologies if I've missed your point, it's just that I'm not aware of the free-market creating a working water supply and sanitation system. I am also aware that water scarcity will become an increasingly hot topic in the coming decades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Devon Malcolm Posted March 4, 2012 Paid Members Share Posted March 4, 2012 Oh you should. Bizarre mixture of antique shops and chavs. Never seen anything quite like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bashar Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 Oh you should. Bizarre mixture of antique shops and chavs. Never seen anything quite like it. Â No doubt, but Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vamp Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 (edited) Has it failed? Serious question.  I think that's part of the issue really. After the failure of communism (although we get in to issues there because China's communism and capitalism combination is doing better than a lot of us capitalist fuckers at the moment, although the poor might disagree with that) it's often been said that capitalism is the least worst system. Not the best, just not as awful as the others. I think that prevents a lot of people from being willing to contemplate viable alternatives. Not that I have any, nor does anyone else yet, but you see my point.  derided doctors for supposedly having a piss-easy job  I actually saw that bit, and you've got to be careful there. He did say GP's, not doctors as a whole, and my doctor spends most of his time sitting in his room, watching the TV they've had installed in there and then going "yeah" after every symtpon and typing them into his computer to find out what's wrong. I wouldn't say that's a bad job. Although obviously lots of doctors do put in a trememdnous amount of work and I wouldn't want the job. I just wanted to grumble about my GP really.  said that multiculturalism has eroded British values and nationalism  Again, complicated. I'm mostly a lefty, and I like multiculturalism, but over a long period of time national identities and values will change. That's been an issue for hundreds of years though. A lot of the racial issues with colonialism stemmed out of a desire to maintain an identity which was immediately seen as under threat by such movement. I mean, I couldn't give a toss if British identity and values as they are now change, and to me it's not a negative thing to have happen, but Starkey is right in that it is a process that is occuring. But then it's a process which modernists were writing about and even before then. Although the way Starkey was talking about it was part of the more dangerous problem that's slowly growing across Europe.  I actually sound like I'm defending David starkey. I'm not really sure how I got into that position. It was a vile performance, and he's only there to make his other right wing buddies look more progressive anyway. Edited March 6, 2012 by Vamp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The King Of Swing Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 That's the problem with Starky even if he says something I agree with (which is rare) I still want to kick his teeth in for being such an arrogant cock about things. Â Horrible little elitist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loki Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 How much has capitalism done in terms of providing people with easy access to clean water, Gladstone? Â Well, if we've been living under this Capital-Liberalism for the last, what, couple of hundred years, I'd say it's done quite a lot. In most developed countries, access to clean drinking water is at 100%. Even in developing countries, the figures are promising - the figures for 2000 show India at 84%. Â The WHO began a drive in 2000 to halve the percentage of people without access to clean water by 2015 under the Millenium Development goals. Don't know whether they're going to hit that, but it's an admirable aim for our Liberal-Capitalist society that is so broken, as you claim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bashar Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 (edited) That's almost entirely due to state and inter-governmental intervention though, fuck all to do with capitalism really. Markets did not build that infrastructure, though the money-men, their friends and useful idiots will lobby to get it placed in the hands of capital once it has been built. In the future, people will have access to clean water - lots will just not be able to afford it. Neoliberalism fails to recognise this as an issue. Â Markets are good at doing certain things, but they're actually pretty rubbish at long-term investment and research. That's been okay (sort of, well not really for a lot of people but nevermind that for the moment), because the forces of social democracy, organised labour etc have checked (and so in actuality, enabled) the markets. But as market ideology rids itself of its shackles, this is becoming less and less the case (e.g. market deregulation causing the whole thing to fuck up). And the market will destroy itself or enable a very dystopian future. Not that the former scenario will be pretty in the least of course. Edited March 5, 2012 by Bashar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loki Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 You can't have it both ways, Bashar. Either we're living under a Liberal Capitalist system, or we're not. You're blaming the system for the failures, but not admitting its accomplishments. Â I'm no huge advocate of unchecked capitalism, and I have serious misgivings about the part of the private sector in traditionally public services, but your sort of black-and-white view of political systems is entirely useless. The world will never stop having free and open markets, capitalism hasn't "failed". It's in the middle of a massive course correction, which will hopefully bring it back to within proscriptions that make it work for society rather than against, but politics is a constant evolution and our system will never be perfect. Â All the "perfect" models that have been tried, such as in post-Revolution Russia, in China or in Cuba for example, have all failed abysmally. The current success of China is down to their absorption of western capitalist drive into their non-democratic system, and even that is predicated on a massive usage of abundant natural resources and cheap/free labour. Like the US and USSR before them, that'll only take them so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bashar Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 (edited) I'm not trying to have it both ways but nor am I interested in your false dichotomy. You say I'm taking a very black and white view of things, but then you're the one who has presented this dichotomy. Â The world hasn't started having free and open markets. That's all just rhetorical bullshit. Liberalism is alive as an ideology, it's just crap at explaining how things really get done. Â Russia, China, Cuba????? Black-and-white views you say? Â But seriously, what makes you think that the correction will see a return to social democracy? Other than blind faith? Â I am not interested in labelling myself as left-wing, or right-wing, or liberal or socialist or anything else. I just see which way the wind is blowing. Edited March 5, 2012 by Bashar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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