Paid Members Ronnie Posted November 19, 2011 Paid Members Share Posted November 19, 2011 Fair enough aaron. Could you please give me a succinct definition of what a corporation is? My friend's dad is an unemployable moron who sees conspiracies everywhere. I got included in one of his circulars the other day, so I'll save aaron the trouble and paste in his definition:  It seems the revolution has begun. The Occupy demonstrations have taken place in over 95 cities across 82 countries, but it's no longer just about 'the economy, stupid' (to use Bill Clinton's famous phrase), but about the corporate state. The economic crisis was caused by large financial institutions which had more power than elected governments. It was the economy that moved people into activism, but a bigger picture is now emerging. Mussolini talked of the "Corporate State of Fascism". That's exactly what's developing now. It's been a hidden Fascism, with a democratic veneer, but since the turn of the century people in the US and the UK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiffy Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 I don't think you necessarily have to be a conspiracy nut to see the affects unchecked capitalism has had on the world wide economy. And to question just how much influence multinational corporations (especially the banks, but many others as well) have on western governments through various lobby groups. Just reading private eye should make you think about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vice Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 Police pepper-spraying a row of seated Occupy protesters:  http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/19/u..._n_1102728.html  Jeez. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Ronnie Posted November 19, 2011 Paid Members Share Posted November 19, 2011 I don't think you necessarily have to be a conspiracy nut to see the affects unchecked capitalism has had on the world wide economy. And to question just how much influence multinational corporations (especially the banks, but many others as well) have on western governments through various lobby groups. Oh, that's just an excerpt and incredibly mild and close to rational. That's not indicative of why he's considered a nutter. Â One of my friends vanished after going for a walk in the mountains near his Italian home last year. His car keys, passport, computer, phone, cards etc were all where he had left them. Not a penny was missing from a charity that he ran. He got more in his pension than I earn (hence the second home abroad). Now, I suppose that his fate could have been one of many things, such as suicide, heart attack, kidnapping (he lived in prime N'dranghetta territory), spontaneous combustion ... but this idiot still litters the internet including mailing lists where friends and family will read them with matter-of-fact references to how he is an undercover member of MI5 who has moved on to other things and just this week came up with "proof" of his claims after another person who's not all there remembered that he once sent her a postcard from Italy ... and it had a police station on the front! "That's interesting. People in subversive operations often like to leave behind a calling-card." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WU LYF 4 LYF Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 I don't think you necessarily have to be a conspiracy nut to see the affects unchecked capitalism has had on the world wide economy. Â As a history student I can observe that since the onset of capitalism the standard of living for most people in the western world has improved considerably. We live longer, eat better etc. Â Even now in the midst of a recession most of us have it pretty good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbins Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 How outraged are you on a scale of 1-10, Aaron? Just for point of referral, 1 would be red-faced and pacing around your bedroom with your fists clenched and 10 would be kicking bankers in the bollocks as they get on the Jubilee Line at Canary Wharf while screaming "I AM 10/10 OUTRAGED!" in their faces. You might be naked as well. Too angry for clothes. Is snarky cynicism a more appropriate response to our current irreparably damaged political system than blind, impotent fury? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Devon Malcolm Posted November 19, 2011 Paid Members Share Posted November 19, 2011 Oh, are things that bad? I didn't know, I was watching Frasier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loki Posted November 20, 2011 Share Posted November 20, 2011 Interesting stuff, Ronnie, you know your economic onions. I think it's now inevitable that the poorer states will leave the Euro; I don't think even Germany will bankrupt itself to keep the ideal of the European state alive. Â I don't think you necessarily have to be a conspiracy nut to see the affects unchecked capitalism has had on the world wide economy. And to question just how much influence multinational corporations (especially the banks, but many others as well) have on western governments through various lobby groups. Just reading private eye should make you think about that. Â For sure, but there's the rub. People like aaron assume that just because you're not handcuffing yourself to an investment banker's Lambo, you must be ignorant of the bad things going on behind the scenes, such as the influence multinationals have on political parties. Whereas you can see the individual acts without having to tie it all together into some giant, globe-spanning conspiracy. There are far too many competing interests in the world for everyone to be in on it, keeping "us" (whoever that is) in our place. Â The world is much more complicated than most conspiracy theorists think. For example - sometimes greed IS good, and sometimes compassion is bad. The capitalist drive has, as Diva Sunny said, lead to a world of prosperity and comfort undreamt of by our grandparents, for the west at least. On the other hand, the West's guilt money to Africa over the last 20 years, in the form of charity and overseas aid, has quite possibly made the corruption and violence worse in many countries that received it. Â I'm not some sort of Randian advocate of selfishness, indeed the near-collapse of the 90s model of unbridled capitalism has finally slayed that dragon, but I'm also not naive enough to make statements like "capitalism=bad". Â Also, Gladstone's snarky cynicism at least saves him from buying all the rolls of tinfoil that aaron gets through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Ronnie Posted November 20, 2011 Paid Members Share Posted November 20, 2011 Also, Gladstone's snarky cynicism at least saves him from buying all the rolls of tinfoil that aaron gets through. You jest, but it's expensive stuff! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrAzY Posted November 20, 2011 Share Posted November 20, 2011 Just out of interest does anyone know of what Time period the econmy and country were at its best? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildSybianRider Posted November 20, 2011 Share Posted November 20, 2011 The short answer is that I don't actually know, because the counterfactual (Germany from 2002 to 2011 still with the Mark) doesn't exist. Â Â Right, maybe we can't hypothesise about all possible Germanies. But a counterfactual D-Mark would have been traded at a significantly higher price than the euro, for the duration of its existence. For the world's second largest exporter, that's a massive advantage. It's easy to look at the current situation and think Germany is shackled by Mediterranean slobs - and Germany would no doubt be a thriving economy regardless - but their position has been strengthed for the past decade (and longer) by the periphery economies. Â Â Everyone says if, say, Italy left the euro it'd be this giant calamity, but Britain pulled out of the ERM, which was effectively a proto-Euro, after Black Wednesday and the world didn't end. In fact, our economy prospered and the eurozone was fine as well. Â Â The difference being, surely, that Britain leaving the ERM wasn't defaulting on trillions in debt, which is effectively what Italy would be doing? I think the banks could probably absorb a Greek default (I'm not sure how much that would spur contagion, or if it's the right thing to happend, mind). But Italy is a totally different proposition. Italy falling would be a massive fucking domino in Europe. Â Â I don't see the economic problem if any of the countries were to fall out. What are the benefits of the euro again? Price transparency? Who cares about that really? OK, it was easier to see the price you were paying if it was quoted in euros rather than millions of lire, but does anybody in practice really think "I could get that lasagne/haircut/bread cheaper in Slovakia, so I'm buying it from there"? I won't even drive for another few minutes to save a couple of quid on a tank of petrol! And what else? Just the gesture that "We're surrendering our currency for idealism's sake." Forget that. Â Â The chief motivation for the euro is consumer transparency? Are you kidding me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Ronnie Posted November 20, 2011 Paid Members Share Posted November 20, 2011 The chief motivation for the euro is consumer transparency? Are you kidding me? I didn't write that. I said "I don't see the economic problem if any of the countries were to fall out. What are the benefits of the euro again? Price transparency?" Isn't it evident that the comment about benefits of the euro was adjoined to the lead-in "I don't see the economic problem", especially as I'd outlined earlier in that same message that there are separate also political reasons? Â Nowhere did I write that the "chief motivation" is "consumer [sic] transparency". But price transparency was the big economic reason promoted by europhiles at the time, as was a reduction in the transactions cost of having to change one currency into another. And all being said I don't think that these benefits outweigh the surrendering of sovereignty regarding monetary policy. I'm no longer "not swayed either way by the economic arguments" as I was ten years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildSybianRider Posted November 20, 2011 Share Posted November 20, 2011 Ah, my mistake......... Â Â Â Â Â The chief -economic- motivation for the euro is consumer transparency (or price transparency, if you prefer. I was paraphrasing, not quoting)? Are you kidding me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dynamite Duane Posted November 20, 2011 Share Posted November 20, 2011 (edited) If you're just going to parrot idiot conspiracy catchphrases could you kindly shut the fuck up? Ahh, I've missed this place  EDIT:  Don't follow the money follow Max Keiser Edited November 20, 2011 by Dynamite Duane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Galt Posted November 20, 2011 Share Posted November 20, 2011 Don't lump Max Keiser in with the rest of the shite you talk about. That guy knows his stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts