bobbins Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 Oops, got it mixed in with the Twitters I'm following  "I hear that Aaron Porter was called "Tory Jew Scum" by people who chased him. If true then it's a complete disgrace."  From @ARUSU_Pres president of Anglia Ruskin university.  there was no antisemitism. the chant was "we know you,you're a tory too!" his handlers accused us of saying "tory jew" Words to this effect have been all over twitter. Apparently the only people who heard it as "jew" were Aaron Porter and a Daily Mail guy.  Why should we interfere? We interfered in Iraq to depose a genocidal psychopath and that was illegal and wrong. Egypt is far from perfect but it's at peace with Israel and willing to deal positively with the west. How would it be if Mubarak called for Cameron to resign over the fees protests? Fair elections would be nice, but it's a dangerous game to start interfering with the internal politics of other countries. A change in Egypt's leadership could cause a shitload more problems than it solves. To compare it to Iraq isn't really fair, no-one's suggesting military action. The "peace" (complicity) with Israel, and deals with the West are the exact problem the people of Egypt have with Mubarak. Deals with the West that benefit the nation and not just the elite would be received differently, I'm sure. As for interfering, we're already balls-deep in the whole region. We've been funding Mubarak for decades, he can't complain about interference now that the people have spoken.  I can't believe that people are perfectly happy for the country of Egypt and the Middle-East as a whole to be run by unelected and hugely unpopular corrupt military dictators that don't act in the best interests of the people, line their own and their cronies pockets, exploit the resources of the land, silence political protest through violence and commit all kinds of human rights abuses. All through a cowardly and flawed fear that the void will be filled by Islamic fundamentalism. There's no evidence that the majority of Egyptians and Tunisians want an Islamic revolution rather than real democracy. And if they vote for Islamism then so be it. "Fair elections would be nice but..." indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenny McBride Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 (edited) Complicity? That's a strong word. Egypt is the only player in the whole region to accept Israel's right to exist and is one of very few Arab countries that has made any efforts towards genuine peace in the region. I have no great suspicion that free elections will lead to extremists in government, but I also don't generally believe that we have any right to tell another sovereign nation how to govern itself. If positive changes come, great. I'll be as happy as anyone else. Until then, we'd be wise to stay neutral and just hope and pray that it works out for the best. Edited January 30, 2011 by Kenny McBride Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Murtz Posted January 30, 2011 Paid Members Share Posted January 30, 2011 Fucking depressed. I was scheduled to visit Cairo and Alexandria on the 4th Feb till 9th Feb (kind of a dream of mine.. always wanted to visit). I've had to cancel my hotel, and the wait is on tomorrow to see if the travel agent will cancel my 'non refundable' ticket. Surely I've got good reason to do so, as the home office themselves are saying not to travel? Â I feel unlucky as fuck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenny McBride Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 Travel insurance almost always covers you if the Foreign Office advice is not to travel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patiirc Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 Travel insurance almost always covers you if the Foreign Office advice is not to travel. Â Didnt cover my parents who were going to a flood hit area a few years back! Home office advised not to travel as was 'disaster area' but didnt get a refund! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Murtz Posted January 30, 2011 Paid Members Share Posted January 30, 2011 I booked last week, and was going to take out Travel Insurance this week.. before I actually went Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted January 31, 2011 Author Share Posted January 31, 2011 Fucking depressed. I was scheduled to visit Cairo and Alexandria on the 4th Feb till 9th Feb (kind of a dream of mine.. always wanted to visit). I've had to cancel my hotel, and the wait is on tomorrow to see if the travel agent will cancel my 'non refundable' ticket. Surely I've got good reason to do so, as the home office themselves are saying not to travel? I feel unlucky as fuck. Don't cancel, go over and get involved in the protests. A few guys I know have done that, although they have Egyptian parents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loki Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 The difference in US response to the events in Tunisia, and the events in Egypt, is exactly the reason the Arabs hate the West so much. How hypocritical to applaud the overthrow of one dictator and then caution against the next because he happens to be strategically important. The peoples in these countries aren't stupid, they watch the news and read the internet, and that sort of duplicity is not going down well in Egypt right now. Â It may be politically a safe bet to have Mubarak there, but that's a short termist strategy. It's much better to have a proper functioning democracy in the long term. One of the key reasons that Europe's influence exploded across the world in the era pre-industrial revolution was the acceptance through democracy that it's ok to allow people to say what they think, and have actual dissent and debate within a political system That's a philosophical overhaul that the Arab nations (and China) will have to go through eventually, and now is as good a time as any for North Africa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Murtz Posted January 31, 2011 Paid Members Share Posted January 31, 2011 Fucking depressed. I was scheduled to visit Cairo and Alexandria on the 4th Feb till 9th Feb (kind of a dream of mine.. always wanted to visit). I've had to cancel my hotel, and the wait is on tomorrow to see if the travel agent will cancel my 'non refundable' ticket. Surely I've got good reason to do so, as the home office themselves are saying not to travel? I feel unlucky as fuck. Don't cancel, go over and get involved in the protests. A few guys I know have done that, although they have Egyptian parents. Screw that, the only protest I'll get involved in is one that overthrows the power of Jamie Redknapp and gets Andy Gray back where he belongs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenny McBride Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 The difference in US response to the events in Tunisia, and the events in Egypt, is exactly the reason the Arabs hate the West so much. How hypocritical to applaud the overthrow of one dictator and then caution against the next because he happens to be strategically important. The peoples in these countries aren't stupid, they watch the news and read the internet, and that sort of duplicity is not going down well in Egypt right now. It may be politically a safe bet to have Mubarak there, but that's a short termist strategy. It's much better to have a proper functioning democracy in the long term. One of the key reasons that Europe's influence exploded across the world in the era pre-industrial revolution was the acceptance through democracy that it's ok to allow people to say what they think, and have actual dissent and debate within a political system That's a philosophical overhaul that the Arab nations (and China) will have to go through eventually, and now is as good a time as any for North Africa.  Hypocrisy is what drives international politics, though. Saddam Hussein commits genocide and we're protesting an illegal war. There's genocide in Darfur and we're insisting that international law MANDATES that we get involved. I'd never argue against democracy anywhere. I'd just like to see a bit of consistency of our own deeply cherished principles. If democracy is the way forward for EVERYONE, then let's get into North Korea, Saudi Arabia and China and shake that shit up. If not, let's keep our noses out of, say, Tunisia's business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loki Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 Agreed. I'm bright enough to realise that international politics has to have a massive dollop of pragmatism in it, but as you say when it extends into blatant hypocrisy, you've gone too far. The Islamic world holds us in contempt for precisely these reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Houchen Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 The excellent Adam Curtis and his latest blog, Rupert Murdoch - A Portrait Of Satan http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/adamcurtis/2011...ortrait_of.html  Didn't really know where to post this, I thought this thread will do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikey Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 Hypocrisy is what drives international politics, though. Saddam Hussein commits genocide and we're protesting an illegal war. There's genocide in Darfur and we're insisting that international law MANDATES that we get involved. I'd never argue against democracy anywhere. I'd just like to see a bit of consistency of our own deeply cherished principles. If democracy is the way forward for EVERYONE, then let's get into North Korea, Saudi Arabia and China and shake that shit up. If not, let's keep our noses out of, say, Tunisia's business. Â I feel this way about most things in life. It's the inconsistency which kills credibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbins Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Complicity? That's a strong word. But accurate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenny McBride Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Complicity? That's a strong word. But accurate. Â That depends entirely on your view of Israel and its position in the world. It's the only functioning democracy in the region. It's under constant threat from terrorists within its own borders. More than one of its near neighbours see its destruction as a primary foreign policy goal. I don't necessarily agree with all its policies as they relate to the Palestinians, but a major Arab nation that recognises it as a valid sovereign nation with a right to exist and which seeks peace with it (rather than more pointless conflict as it had in the past) is surely better than the alternative? Â Let me stress that I'm not saying that Mubarak is a good guy, or even that he's "our bastard" so we should protect him. I'm just saying that the whole region is a lot more complex than a lot of people would like to think. There is horrible shit going on on all sides, whether it's Egypt abusing its own citizens or Israelis settling on Palestinian land or the Palestinians bombing fuck out of Israel or whatever else. We should either go in and "impose our will" on them all or, more sensibly, we should stand well back and only give them support when 1. they ask for it; and 2. it's advancing a genuinely just cause. For example, now that Mubarak has said there will be elections soon, I'd be more than happy to send whatever help they need to make that happen in the easiest and best way possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts