The King Of Swing Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2011/...art-of-comments  http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/...tests-live.html  If reports coming out of Bahrain are true then its horrific over there right now and reports have come out that protesters have hanged two policemen in Libya though reports from Libya are apparently harder to verify.  19.19 The British Government has halted exports of security equipment to Bahrain and Libya.Britain has licensed hundreds of cartridges of tear gas and other riot control equipment for export to Bahrain in the past nine months and been criticised by human rights groups. Foreign Secretary William Hague said there was no evidence Bahrain was using British-made products to crack down on protesters.  You couldn't fucking make it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members JNLister Posted February 18, 2011 Paid Members Share Posted February 18, 2011 On a different note what do people think of AV? I think I'll be voting in favour of it. David Cameron is talking out of his arse on this one. Saying that it's "bad for democracy" is particularly odd seeing as it means everyone will be able to vote for who they actually want rather than tactically vote as people would perhaps do now. Â I'm seriously torn. Â On the one hand, it's miles better than the current system and would force parties into more partisan politics, plus as you say people can actually vote for who they want. Â On the other hand... it's NOT PR. I've been an advocate for PR my entire life, and so were the Lib Dems, and all of a sudden they change their mind and I'm supposed to go along? If we get AV, then it'll be another 40 years before I ever see a truly proportional voting system in this country. Â I think it's more a case that if you don't get AV here, you won't get any change to FPTP in your lifetime. If the no vote wins, future governments will just say "hey, people voted in favour of FPTP, so no more referenda." Â Gary is right -- it is possible (albeit unlikely) to win with less than 50% as you can list as many or as few people as you like. In reality, I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't become fashionable to pointedly rank every candidate except the BNP one. Â In terms of proportionality compared with FPTP, it's a mixed picture. Most studies I've seen suggest it's more proportional (at least in the case of the three major parties) when elections are relatively close. In a landslide (such as 1997) it could exaggerate the effect. Â Despite the criticism from Scottish and Welsh Nationalists that the election date is a stitch-up, I think doing it on the same day as other elections is much more favorable to the No campaign. If it was on a separate day, hardcore AV supporters would vote, but I can't see the average person making an effort to go down the polls just to vote in favour of FPTP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members garynysmon Posted February 18, 2011 Paid Members Share Posted February 18, 2011 I'm still undecided about the AV Referendum, but there's a much more important vote here in Wales on March 3rd. It's about giving the Assembly the powers to govern over issues without having to go to Westminster, 'cap in hand' every time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted February 19, 2011 Author Share Posted February 19, 2011 http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2011/...art-of-comments http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/...tests-live.html  If reports coming out of Bahrain are true then its horrific over there right now and reports have come out that protesters have hanged two policemen in Libya though reports from Libya are apparently harder to verify.  19.19 The British Government has halted exports of security equipment to Bahrain and Libya.Britain has licensed hundreds of cartridges of tear gas and other riot control equipment for export to Bahrain in the past nine months and been criticised by human rights groups. Foreign Secretary William Hague said there was no evidence Bahrain was using British-made products to crack down on protesters.  You couldn't fucking make it up. The reports are indeed true.  shows footage of Bahrain's armed forces gunning down protesters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soretooth Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 Fucking hell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbins Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 I think it's more a case that if you don't get AV here, you won't get any change to FPTP in your lifetime. If the no vote wins, future governments will just say "hey, people voted in favour of FPTP, so no more referenda." On the other hand, if we do get AV here, we're no more likely to move on to real PR. If AV is a disaster (quite possible), they'll all say, "See, we never should have changed, back to FPTP forever" a la Canada. If it's not a disaster, we'll be stuck with AV forever like Australia, as our democracy narrows to a permanent coalition and opposition, effectively a two-party system. Â Either way we're fucked unless people really stand up and demand PR. Interested to know if they're going to count spoilt ballots in the referendum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Van Dammer Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 (edited) http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2011/...art-of-comments http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/...tests-live.html  If reports coming out of Bahrain are true then its horrific over there right now and reports have come out that protesters have hanged two policemen in Libya though reports from Libya are apparently harder to verify.  19.19 The British Government has halted exports of security equipment to Bahrain and Libya.Britain has licensed hundreds of cartridges of tear gas and other riot control equipment for export to Bahrain in the past nine months and been criticised by human rights groups. Foreign Secretary William Hague said there was no evidence Bahrain was using British-made products to crack down on protesters.  You couldn't fucking make it up. The reports are indeed true.  shows footage of Bahrain's armed forces gunning down protesters.  Its so disturbing that people have to risk their lives in order to try and get a better quality of life, really hope places like this get torn apart by its people, much of the region is just as rotten as Bahrain. Edited February 19, 2011 by Van Dammer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The King Of Swing Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Is the Gaddafi regime on its last legs?  http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/feb/2...ernment-tripoli  Libya protesters set fire to government buildings in Tripoli Anti-Gaddafi demonstrations spread to capital from Benghazi as some soldiers reportedly switch sides to aid activists  Protesters in Libya's capital are reported to have set fire to government buildings and attacked the headquarters of state television as the anti-Gaddafi demonstrations that began in the east of the country threaten to engulf the regime.  Hundreds of demonstrators took to the streets overnight clashing with police and shouting anti-Gaddafi slogans as tribal leaders demanded an end to the violent government crackdown. There were also reports that some soldiers in the east had defected to the opposition, in a revolt that has killed more than 230 people.  Witnesses said that the brutal crackdown, that began in the country's second city of Benghazi, has spread to the capital overnight with reports of automatic gunfire and teargas in Tripoli for the first time since the unrest began.  The government building where the general people's congress, or parliament, meets was reported to be on fire and there were separate reports that protesters had attacked the headquarters of the state television network.  "I can see the People's Hall is on fire, there are firefighters there trying to put it out," a Reuters reporter said.  A hotel worker told the Guardian: "The mood is very tense here. We have heard that government buildings are on fire and locals are scared to leave their homes. Most foreigners are trying to leave."  Muammar Gaddafi has so far relied on brute force to crush what began as peaceful protests five days ago, and last night his son Saif al-Islam appeared on state TV to say it was a "tragedy" that Libyans had died but warned of "civil war" unless order was restored.  "There is a plot against Libya," said Saif, blaming "an Islamic group with a military agenda" for the bloodshed in Benghazi. Libya would see "rivers of blood", an exodus of foreign oil companies and occupation by "imperialists" if the violence continued, he said.  In reality, there has been little sign of Islamist involvement in Libya's unprecedented unrest. Nor was there in the uprisings in Tunisia or Egypt.  "Muammar Gaddafi, our leader, is leading the battle in Tripoli, and we are with him," Saif said. "The armed forces are with him. Tens of thousands are heading here to be with him. We will fight until the last man, the last woman, the last bullet."  Facts are hard to pin down in the face of a news blackout that has included jamming the signal of the al-Jazeera TV network and interference with telephone and internet connections. But there were multiple claims of the army firing into crowds and the targeting of mourners at the funerals of those killed on Saturday.  In fast-moving developments after midnight, demonstrators were reported to be in Tripoli's Green Square and preparing to march on Gaddafi's compound as rumours spread that the leader had fled to Venezuela. Other reports described protesters in the streets of Tripoli throwing stones at billboards of Gaddafi while police used teargas to try to disperse them.  "People are in the street chanting 'Allahu Akbar' (God is great) and throwing stones at photos of Gaddafi," an expatriate worker told Reuters by phone from Tripoli. "The police are firing teargas everywhere, it's even getting into the houses."  A Tripoli resident, who did not want to be identified, told Reuters the streets of the capital appeared to be calm early on Monday morning but that there was no sign of police, which is unusual for the city.  The drama in Libya overshadowed developments elsewhere in the region. Tensions eased in Bahrain after troops withdrew from a square in Manama occupied by Shia protesters. Thousands of security personnel were also deployed in the Iranian capital, Tehran, to forestall an opposition rally. Elsewhere in the region unrest hit Yemen, Morocco, Oman, Kuwait and Algeria.  But the eyes of the world are on Libya. In Benghazi in the east of the country shocked witnesses spoke of "massacres" and described corpses shot in the head, chest or neck piling up in hospitals running short of blood and medicines.  According to a Reuters report, Libyan soldiers said they had defected and were joining the protests. An intelligence source reported that 150 soldiers and officers who disobeyed orders and refused to shoot at protesters would be executed.  Estimates of the total number of fatalities over six days of unprecedented unrest ranged from 233 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoghurt Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Decades of meddling and more has been done in eight weeks of protesting. Really shows up Western foreign bureaucracy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loki Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 If reports of bits of the army changing sides is true, then we could be in for an actual civil war. Which will not be nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The King Of Swing Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 (edited) http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12307698  The entire Libyan delegation to the United Nations has called for international action over events in Libya. The deputy ambassador called for protection for citizens from what he called the genocide being carried out by the Libyan government. He also called for a no-fly zone over the Libyan capital, Tripoli.  A number of Libya's senior government officials and diplomats have now quit. Libya's envoy to the Arab League, Abdel Moneim al-Honi, announced earlier he was "joining the revolution" and its ambassador to India, Ali al-Essawi, told the BBC he was resigning in protest against his government's violent crackdown on demonstrators.  Libyan Justice Minister Mustafa Mohamed Abud al-Jeleil has resigned over the "excessive use of violence" against protesters, the privately-owned Quryna newspaper reports.  I really can't see Gaddafi's "government" surviving much longer and its also making the rounds that Col. Gaddafi may have actually fled the country though its being denied and since his sons are still in Libya I highly doubt the rumors are true.  As Loki brought up its very possible that this could become a civil war though and may have already gone over that line.  EDIT  All Italian air bases have been placed on maximum alert, the Italian news agency Ansa reports  No idea what that could mean.  EDIT AGAIN  If what is being reported is true (it it seems almost certainly true) then Gadaffi and his cronies are a bunch of wild animals who should be put down without mercy, I consider myself a liberal but its obvious that violence is the only language Gadaffi and those he has surrounded himself with (and hired) understands. Edited February 21, 2011 by The King Of Swing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matbro1984 Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 A maelstrom of feeling regarding the situation in the Middle East right now. Awful as the status quo is, I really want to be optimistic that this is necessary for true freedom to come to the region. That sounds a bit Obama-esque but you know what I mean. A serious domino effect for pro-democracy demonstrators throughout the region, and it makes you wonder where such an uprising may happen next. Â Also. Utterly off topic, but King of Swing - what the hell?! Your sig I mean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The King Of Swing Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Also. Utterly off topic, but King of Swing - what the hell?! Your sig I mean. Â Its part of a post (by Gatso who I think has since been banned) from the one night stand thread. Â Anyway back on topic I tend to agree with you on this being necessary because Gadaffi has shown he is not the kind of "man" to peacfully give up power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matbro1984 Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Also. Utterly off topic, but King of Swing - what the hell?! Your sig I mean. Â Its part of a post (by Gatso who I think has since been banned) from the one night stand thread. Â Anyway back on topic I tend to agree with you on this being necessary because Gadaffi has shown he is not the kind of "man" to peacfully give up power. Â Off topic: I just read the post in question. Are the bods in charge of UKFF liable to report that or something? He says that's a wind up which doesn't hold terribly much water. If it is true, without wishing to sound like an enraged tabloid reader or a bandwagoner, then that's disgusting. It literally reads like a rape confession dressed up as lads banter. It could be worse, but only if Danny Dyer read it aloud. Â ON topic - Tunisia, Egypt, Libya, Bahrain. Who's up for a sweepstake on where's next? It's all dictatorships, clearly there's a domino effect going on here. People are starting to believe they really can take their countries back. It's going to be horrific in the short term but you have to believe this will ultimately be positive progress. Unfortunately bloodshed and violence seem like inevitable consequences of such drastic change taking place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted February 21, 2011 Author Share Posted February 21, 2011 People are starting to believe they really can take their countries back. It's just a pity we probably won't ever see the same kind of thing here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts