The Super Duper Rugby Union Thread

[matbro1984]

I love the Anglocentric media, I also love the also rans thinking they have a place at the big boys table.

 

Last time I checked the also-rans are 2nd in the table. So, I presume you're an advocate for England breaking away for it's own RBS 1 Nation tournament and leaving the other 5 to flounder in mediocrity?

[Yoghurt]

Every year is a grand slam.

[matbro1984]

Every year is a grand slam.

I'm sold on the idea. Imagine how cheap the highlight DVDs would be to produce.

 

Quality trolling btw. I bit.

Edited March 14, 2011 by matbro1984

[matbro1984]

On a related note, I wonder if any of my rugby-related nominations ended up in the 2011 Twatlist Top 30? Probably not. I nominated Chris Ashton for being an arrogant, showboating nonce. It's 100% pure chippyness but I can't stand the guy. In hindsight though, there probably are more worthy contenders. I stand by the choice of Lawrence Dallaglio though. Surely even the most hardened English fan must think he's a colossal gimp?

 

Actually, scrap all that. Sonia McLaughlin. She must be blowing someone for the BBC to still be employing her. She knows less than fuck all.

Edited March 14, 2011 by matbro1984

[mikey]

As a rugby player, I loved Bruno. He could stop the opposition playing all by himself. His ability to break up play was immense. As a pundit/commentator, not so much.

 

And Butch, can we not get back to the original conversation? What genuinely could be done to help/foster/shepherd teams from the chasing pack into the top tier of rugby union?

 

EDIT: The problem with Ashton is he's still basically a rugby league player. All his tries have come from, arguably, doing what a winger shouldn't do. The rest of his game isn't up to scratch as yet and he plays and acts like he's the world's finest player.

Edited March 14, 2011 by mikey

[PowerButchi]

The English press crowed about winning because, well, they won.

 

So obviously, by your proviso, Stoke play good football. Can't have it both ways.

 

 

And Butch, can we not get back to the original conversation? What genuinely could be done to help/foster/shepherd teams from the chasing pack into the top tier of rugby union?

 

I didn't change it, it was you that had a pop at the Welsh. Go back and you'd see that.

 

When they could get their act together, even Wales were OK.

 

Bullshit. Don't make me spark down a list of players that went up north and left us with Mark Ring being "Creative", and Mike Hall as Captain.

 

Or Perego getting Capped.

 

 

The RFU is the most dysfunctional organisation in professional sport. If we ever get our shit together, we'll dominate world rugby. According to a young rugby-playing colleague, that will come sooner than many would think.

 

And the worst thing is, you never will playing actual Rugby. And the tools are there. A Player like Foden is only at half his potential. Imagine him playing for a Pacific Nations side. Ashton is as talented as Cau Cau. England's rugby team has some great footaballers, but under Johnson they'll never be their best. Ashton however was the man for the job. I loved watching 90's Bath for their Attacking spirit.

Edited March 15, 2011 by ButchReedMark

[Yoghurt]

I did enjoy seeing all those great Welsh players in League shirts. I hope it happens again, though I'm not sure there are many good enough like there used to be.

[mikey]

The English press crowed about winning because, well, they won.

 

So obviously, by your proviso, Stoke play good football. Can't have it both ways.

 

There's a difference between playing dull and having literally nothing other than the ability to foul and get away with it. So, let's face it, I can have it both ways as it's not the same thing. And this is why the English have it in for the Welsh, as we have to put up with being lectured because we actually enjoy classic forward play.

 

And Butch, can we not get back to the original conversation? What genuinely could be done to help/foster/shepherd teams from the chasing pack into the top tier of rugby union?

 

I didn't change it, it was you that had a pop at the Welsh. Go back and you'd see that.

 

I said that to mattbro because he said we crowed. I feel the Welsh crow worse because the Welsh act like their victories mean more because it's some victory for pure rugby. It's this superior attitude which annoys the rest of us.

 

Still, I would like to hear your opinion on my reply to your post, which incidentally contained no negative reference to Wales, pointing out that Wales has more Samoans playing there than Australia, showing how Super Rugby serves only the Tri-Nations and nobody else, despite Samoa being on Australia's doorstep.

 

The RFU is the most dysfunctional organisation in professional sport. If we ever get our shit together, we'll dominate world rugby. According to a young rugby-playing colleague, that will come sooner than many would think.

 

And the worst thing is, you never will playing actual Rugby. And the tools are there. A Player like Foden is only at half his potential. Imagine him playing for a Pacific Nations side. Ashton is as talented as Cau Cau. England's rugby team has some great footaballers, but under Johnson they'll never be their best. Ashton however was the man for the job. I loved watching 90's Bath for their Attacking spirit.

 

I've been as big a critic of this team as anybody but I think this is as entertaining and open a side as we've put out for years. We're not kicking it for the sake of it, we're keeping the ball in hand and playing some rugby. Forwards are offloading out of the tackle and, when Youngs is on the field, we're not over-rucking. We've played the best and most interesting stuff of this dour tournament.

 

And answer my post damnit, I want to hear an answer because you know your rugby.

[PowerButchi]

What genuinely could be done to help/foster/shepherd teams from the chasing pack into the top tier of rugby union?

 

The only thing you can really do to improve is play top sides. Other than developmental tours in the Summer (and they're normally to the US and Canada or sending young Lambs to the Slaughter in the SH), none of the big ten really play the lesser teams unless it's the World Cup. We're the worst for this in Wales. It's always the Boks, Kiwis and Wallabies and then a token game against either Canada or a Pacific side. It'd probably be fairer if we played 2 strong teams then played a Romania and Georgia or something like that, but the WRU want the ticket sales that come with playing the strong SH sides. There is the European Nations Cup of course, but I don't know much of that at all. But look at the Kenyan sevens team. They go to all the tournaments, play the top nations and have gone from whipping boys to being a really really strong sevens team. You learn by doing, and the top nations should be giving countries like Georgia a game more often. We've a duty to grow the sport, as we'll reap the benefits if we do.

[mikey]

What genuinely could be done to help/foster/shepherd teams from the chasing pack into the top tier of rugby union?

 

The only thing you can really do to improve is play top sides. Other than developmental tours in the Summer (and they're normally to the US and Canada or sending young Lambs to the Slaughter in the SH), none of the big ten really play the lesser teams unless it's the World Cup. We're the worst for this in Wales. It's always the Boks, Kiwis and Wallabies and then a token game against either Canada or a Pacific side. It'd probably be fairer if we played 2 strong teams then played a Romania and Georgia or something like that, but the WRU want the ticket sales that come with playing the strong SH sides. There is the European Nations Cup of course, but I don't know much of that at all. But look at the Kenyan sevens team. They go to all the tournaments, play the top nations and have gone from whipping boys to being a really really strong sevens team. You learn by doing, and the top nations should be giving countries like Georgia a game more often. We've a duty to grow the sport, as we'll reap the benefits if we do.

 

I don't think it's just Wales or the NH nations, it's also the SH teams. New Zealand come over here and fleece our pockets, playing additional games against the Baa-Baas for instance. Everybody's complicit.

 

The European Nations Cup has been tinkered with time and again. The top two divisions are now essentially yearly Six Nations-style competitions with bi-annual relegation and promotion, based on your performances over the last two years. It's a reasonable competition but it's unreasonable to ask Spain and Portugal to travel to Ukraine and Russia when they don't have the money to do so. Where cricket has made in-roads with the World Cricket League, rugby cannot because you can't play six games in eight days and still have rest periods.

 

Given that, I personally think you're onto something with the Sevens. Sevens tournaments take two days and World Cup Sevens typically takes three. There's no reason why this format can't be used more regularly for developing nations, especially given we're five years from the being in the Olympics and it's already in the Commonwealth and Asian Games. There should be regular regional sevens tournaments, especially for tier three nations. Kenya are nobodies in the fifteen-man game but they're decent at Sevens. Portugal are handier at Sevens too, though they are probably inside the top 10 in the second tier.

[matbro1984]

I said that to mattbro because he said we crowed. I feel the Welsh crow worse because the Welsh act like their victories mean more because it's some victory for pure rugby. It's this superior attitude which annoys the rest of us.

 

Absolute bollocks, and I've already addressed why.

 

as the largest rugby union in the world by a HUGE margin, that is why we and other teams crow when we beat you. You are the biggest, the richest, and have a large number of people to pick from

 

Nothing to do with a superior attitude. If anything, you should be flattered not annoyed - England clearly are perceived as the team to beat; a benchmark of sorts by which the other nations test themselves.

Edited March 15, 2011 by matbro1984

[matbro1984]

Two recent example of coaches talking absolute, embarrassing shite

 

Gatland about Adam Jones

 

I hope Adam has been training hard because he knows if he turns up on Tuesday overweight he will be sent home.

 

He is someone who only has to look at food to put weight on.

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2011/mar/1...les-six-nations

 

Marc Lievremont

 

Do I feel responsible for that? No, they betrayed us, they have betrayed me and they have betrayed the French national team shirt.

 

Do you really think that I told them to play as they did against Italy? I was ashamed. I do not have the impression we asked them to walk on the moon. I do not ask for complicated things.

 

This match was an hallucination. I do not want to clear myself from the blame but they invented things on the pitch.

 

They are lacking in courage. They are good guys but cursed with what is obviously cowardice.

 

They are not even capable of admitting to their own mistakes. Perhaps it is a trend among the new generation

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunio...ly-in-Rome.html

[mikey]

I said that to mattbro because he said we crowed. I feel the Welsh crow worse because the Welsh act like their victories mean more because it's some victory for pure rugby. It's this superior attitude which annoys the rest of us.

 

Absolute bollocks, and I've already addressed why.

 

as the largest rugby union in the world by a HUGE margin, that is why we and other teams crow when we beat you. You are the biggest, the richest, and have a large number of people to pick from

 

Nothing to do with a superior attitude. If anything, you should be flattered not annoyed - England clearly are perceived as the team to beat; a benchmark of sorts by which the other nations test themselves.

 

Hang on, but is there not a perception that England do "not play rugby"? Is it not the view that Wales play the prettiest rugby and have the most skilled forwards with the ball in hand in the Northern Hemisphere, behind New Zealand in the world?

 

For me, part of why people hate England is because English rugby represents the English elite; the upper classes, the rich landowners, the aristocracy, the oppressive overlords basically. When we played Ireland at Croke Park we choked because the weight of pressure on the team was so great. The symbolism of England facing Ireland in *the* garrison game, at the home of the GAA with all the history of the Easter Rising, Hill 16 and Bloody Sunday, it was like they were fighting for freedom all over again. It's not just "we want to beat the biggest union", it's about beating those oppressive bastards.

[matbro1984]

I said that to mattbro because he said we crowed. I feel the Welsh crow worse because the Welsh act like their victories mean more because it's some victory for pure rugby. It's this superior attitude which annoys the rest of us.

 

Absolute bollocks, and I've already addressed why.

 

as the largest rugby union in the world by a HUGE margin, that is why we and other teams crow when we beat you. You are the biggest, the richest, and have a large number of people to pick from

 

Nothing to do with a superior attitude. If anything, you should be flattered not annoyed - England clearly are perceived as the team to beat; a benchmark of sorts by which the other nations test themselves.

 

Hang on, but is there not a perception that England do "not play rugby"? Is it not the view that Wales play the prettiest rugby and have the most skilled forwards with the ball in hand in the Northern Hemisphere, behind New Zealand in the world?

 

For me, part of why people hate England is because English rugby represents the English elite; the upper classes, the rich landowners, the aristocracy, the oppressive overlords basically. When we played Ireland at Croke Park we choked because the weight of pressure on the team was so great. The symbolism of England facing Ireland in *the* garrison game, at the home of the GAA with all the history of the Easter Rising, Hill 16 and Bloody Sunday, it was like they were fighting for freedom all over again. It's not just "we want to beat the biggest union", it's about beating those oppressive bastards.

 

That perception (that England don't play "pretty" rugby) is not the reason for us to savour the wins when they arrive. That isn't to say I haven't heard it trotted out as a criticism in the last few years - not this year though.

 

However, the latter paragraph is correct, especially for the Celtic nations. Either way, it's certainly not due to us thinking we are superior or play "prettier" rugby.

[PowerButchi]

What genuinely could be done to help/foster/shepherd teams from the chasing pack into the top tier of rugby union?

 

The only thing you can really do to improve is play top sides. Other than developmental tours in the Summer (and they're normally to the US and Canada or sending young Lambs to the Slaughter in the SH), none of the big ten really play the lesser teams unless it's the World Cup. We're the worst for this in Wales. It's always the Boks, Kiwis and Wallabies and then a token game against either Canada or a Pacific side. It'd probably be fairer if we played 2 strong teams then played a Romania and Georgia or something like that, but the WRU want the ticket sales that come with playing the strong SH sides. There is the European Nations Cup of course, but I don't know much of that at all. But look at the Kenyan sevens team. They go to all the tournaments, play the top nations and have gone from whipping boys to being a really really strong sevens team. You learn by doing, and the top nations should be giving countries like Georgia a game more often. We've a duty to grow the sport, as we'll reap the benefits if we do.

 

I don't think it's just Wales or the NH nations, it's also the SH teams. New Zealand come over here and fleece our pockets, playing additional games against the Baa-Baas for instance. Everybody's complicit.

 

The European Nations Cup has been tinkered with time and again. The top two divisions are now essentially yearly Six Nations-style competitions with bi-annual relegation and promotion, based on your performances over the last two years. It's a reasonable competition but it's unreasonable to ask Spain and Portugal to travel to Ukraine and Russia when they don't have the money to do so. Where cricket has made in-roads with the World Cricket League, rugby cannot because you can't play six games in eight days and still have rest periods.

 

Given that, I personally think you're onto something with the Sevens. Sevens tournaments take two days and World Cup Sevens typically takes three. There's no reason why this format can't be used more regularly for developing nations, especially given we're five years from the being in the Olympics and it's already in the Commonwealth and Asian Games. There should be regular regional sevens tournaments, especially for tier three nations. Kenya are nobodies in the fifteen-man game but they're decent at Sevens. Portugal are handier at Sevens too, though they are probably inside the top 10 in the second tier.

 

While it's early to say for sure, I'd like to think that the inclusion of Italian teams in the Celtic League has been a factor in the improvement of their International team. Perhaps giving a couple of guaranteed places in the Heineken for Romanian, Georgian, Spanish and Portuguese sides might be of use. Granted they'd get mullered, but it'd be good for them