tiger_rick

6 minutes ago, Keith Houchen said:

their hometown advantage 

1 minute ago, Snitsky's back acne said:

Indeed. Plus I never really get the 'well just because they are the most successful doesn't mean they have the best product' narrative. It kind of does, actually.

It may not be your personal favourite but the fact that the majority are consuming it does make it 'the best'.

'Just because McDonalds sells the most burgers doesn't mean they're the best'. - yes, it kind of does. You may prefer another burger joint but more people prefer McDonalds.

Now, sure, I get 'habits' and 'established brands' etc. and the fact that some amazing companies do not have the resources that the large corporations do BUT 'the best' is subjective based on individual taste. The only true barometer we have to measure 'the best' is success, because that gauges overall consumption, and in that regard WWE is the best.

Apologies, I may have drifted off on a tangent there but it's a concept that interests me. 

We've been arguing about this on here since the dawn of the forum. It's nothing new. I'd say, respectfully, you're wrong. Most successful doesn't mean best. Maccies burgers might be the best branded, best known or best promoted but there's no way on the planet they are the best. Wrestling is a creative industry. In any creative industry, music, films, TV, theatre, etc - what is popular isn't always what is good.

WWE does appear from all I read and hear to have hugely improved. Fair play to them. However, when everything you read and heard was about how fucking shit they were, how dreadful Dunn was, how out of touch Vince was, who was the most successful wrestling promotion in the world? Who signed mega deals with Fox and USA? Who sold to Peacock for billions? Yep. The "shitty" WWE.

3 minutes ago, DavidB6937 said:

Oh in terms of reasonable discussion and all that - absolutely. I rarely directly engage with anyone on Twitter.

However in terms of a wider picture and seeing how people are reacting to stuff, reading Twitter/Facebook/Reddit can give a more overall view of how things are being received as a general audience, which I would assume WWE care more about than us on here. Basically the opposite of Tony Khan.

And right now, as far as I can tell, the questionable booking and shifts hasn't caused a mass turn against Cody or caused any issues with the business, nor has whatever work The Rock has been putting in. And that'll be all they care about really.

The problem is that all those reactions are positive. I've never been big into wrestling Twitter, even when Twitter wasn't 80% bots and adverts, but if you click on trends, all you see generally is the enthusiasm and over-reaction of the moment. And any counter voices in the comments/replies are absolutely worthless because the counter 99% of the time is that someone is a WWE Drone or AEW Supermark. It's worthless from a critical POV.

WWE are going to make a load of money. For all the people criticising Kevin Dunn and praising HHH this morning on the trend I clicked on, WWE made record revenues when Kevin Dunn was inducing epilepsy on a weekly basis. Not to drag down all the people who want to turn a blind eye, but WWE made billions after a scandal that should have brought the organisation to it's knees. It's revenues, clicks, likes, shares and subscribes are not evidence of good booking.

No-one on Twitter, that I can find as a casual clicker of trends, is going to give the same well-thought out view on the poor booking as @d-d-d-dAz has in the last couple of weeks. As much as he's sometimes hyperbolic in the moment (Sorry Supes), no-one is giving things the thought that @Supremo does. 

I don't really care too much as I'm not gonna watch, but I'm interested in whether HHH is a good booker because I'm a nosey bastard lifelong wrestling fan, for my shame. Seems to me that they've muddied the waters with Cody/Roman/Rock, Roman isn't the focus he should be, Rock is a reluctant heel, Cody has lost a little bit of the clear momentum he had, Seth Rollins is a waste of space, Jey Uso hardly ever wins, Sami Zayn has gone from the most popular man on the roster to being second preference to Chad Gable and very little else of consequence is happening on 57 hours of Raw and Smackdown.

My take would be that HHH is a huge improvement on Vince, that isn't difficult because Vince is useless and none of it matters really because they'll cash in regardless. 

8 minutes ago, Mr_Danger said:

Judging HHH’s booking by posts on here he might come across as fucking up the Cody story but if you judge it on the comments on Twitter he’s the best ever. I think he/WWE were doing a fine job considering it was a two year build but then in the final stretch of that build the remit changed from ‘Make Cody the focal point of the company’ to ‘Stop people talking about the perverted sex maniac by any means necessary’. Even so they’ve far from fucked it up. Cody is still mega over and they’ve laid the foundations for a couple of huge matches down the line. It absolutely can all far apart come Mania though.

I think they fucked it the day they switched to Rock/Roman and then backtracked quickly without rhyme or reason. Completely agree with you that it's be alright in the end but it's piss-poor booking, let's be honest. 

I'd much rather judge on the people on here than the people on Twitter who were telling me that shows in the Thunderdome were great, fwiw.

3 hours ago, DavidB6937 said:

And enjoying the experimentation each week with the shots. Definitely feels like they're more flexible now.

Saw "Kevin Dunn" trending this morning so I clicked on it to see if he'd died or been arrested. It was everyone talking about this camera work. Which is pretty cool, in fairness. Hunter's an over-rated booker, as evidenced by every other post about him fucking up can't miss Cody (again) but he's not afraid to take stuff from the past that works great, like this. 

Papa Shango ran in on the Main Event of Mania 8 (late if you believe the stories) ahead of his headline feud with the Warrior on the summer house shows and by the greatest Mania of them all, WrestleMania 9 - he was laying down for El Matador in the pre-show dark match.

I genuinely don't have the nostalgia I used to have for Mania, or anything really, for reasons I've banged on about, but I've very much enjoyed reading everyone's posts. A nice thread.

• First WrestleMania watched?

I think the first Mania I saw was 3 on a video a friend brought round but I'd consider 7 my first Mania. That was the first one I saw reasonably close to it airing and the first where I was following the stories, even if it was mostly through WWF magazine as we were too poor for Sky.

• Favourite WrestleMania?

9. I know everyone thinks it's the worst Mania. I know that objectively, it probably is. But I know it's still my favourite and along with 7 & 10, is easily my most watched ever. I'm all in for Bret Hart, for Doink and Crush, for Shawn and Tatonka, for Luger's deadly forearm, for the big naked Giant, for Taker's entrance, for Jim Ross being incredible on the call, for the 3 people who turned up in togas. Even my least favourite booking decision of all-time doesn't hurt this. 

• Have you ever been to WrestleMania?

No. I'd like to say I never will but who knows? Maybe they sort their shit out and I will one day.

• Best/Worst WrestleMania matches.

Warrior/Savage is my favourite match ever. Austin/Bret is the best match in pro-wrestling history. The double-header from Mania 10 is the best 1-2 ever. Rockers v Haku & Barbarian is a brilliant and under-rated opener at 7. Herc and Billy Jack Haynes and the midget match from Mania 3 are probably the best ones that have no right to be. And on that note, Hogan & Warrior are magnificent at Mania 6 considering the expectations there. Worst is difficult. There are millions of terrible matches on most of the early Manias but they're generally short and designed only to put someone over and maintain their momentum. I'd watch them any day over the "epics" of the last 15-20 years that everyone has decided are 7 stars before the bell. They're not for me. On similar note, Bret & Shawn is the biggest disappointment of your life. I'll never love Hogan/Rock as long as I live either. 

• Best/Worst WrestleMania moments.

Best - Savage & Liz reuniting, obvs. Doink cloning himself. Owen beating Bret and still watching him be the man. The spectacle of Hogan/Andre. The production on Bret/Austin is all-time great, particularly the camera work.

Worst - Turning Steve Austin heel. 

Also, I'd always give them a pass because of the circumstances but, a Mania with no fans and "Cinematic" "matches" can get to fuck. 

• Favourite WrestleMania announcer call? 

Not individual calls but Gorilla & Bobby at 8 and JR at 9 are magnificent calls. Nothing since JR's peak has been 1/10th as good as this.

2 minutes ago, Loki said:

You are right that opinions are shaped by people's existing opinions of certain personalities, but you can't then claim to have "no skin in the game".  You're very consistent on your hatred (not unjustified I may add) of WWE but that will surely colour your opinion on this story towards the "they're all guilty" point of view you now hold.

I edited that to make it clear what I meant. I don't dislike Triple H from what I know of him. He's a very good pro-wrestler, excellent backstage politician, good promo, comes across well in a lot of public appearances (when not dodging questions about major scandals) and is a very solid, but over-rated, booker. That doesn't affect my opinion that all of the people we know have been VERY intimately involved in the day to day running of the organisation should be seriously investigated.

2 minutes ago, Loki said:

But I'm loathe to point fingers at people indiscriminately.  

It's not indiscriminate to suggest that Vince McMahon's closest and most trusted colleagues (and family) knew about these accusations. He spent company money paying NDAs. Stephanie was in meetings about the Ashley Massaro accusations. Two of their closest contacts are named in these papers. It's unrealistic to think any of them were blissfully unaware and if they knew and decided to keep out of it to absolve themselves, they've failed.

It all needs investigating. The bad apples all need clearing out and there is absolutely no way anyone should be making the case for their defence until that happens.

1 minute ago, SuperBacon said:

Could that not be "found out and wanted nothing more to do with him/company etc" though?

Not defending Stephanie, as only she knows what she does or doesn't know, but doesn't the time line of all this add up to that being a possibility?

She knew about Ashley Massaro and everyone in the world knew about Rita Chatterton. You'd have to be deaf, dumb and blind not to know about the rest.

I've no wish to see innocent people dragged down by any of this. I've no idea why anyone would try and make the case for the people at the top though, considering how horrendously they have failed these poor women. And depending how far they go back in the organisation (not Trips and Steph here), they've failed a lot of young men too.

1 minute ago, Loki said:

Come now.  We can discuss these things without resorting to hyperbolic comments like this surely.  

I think it's similar wishful thinking, personally. Feel free to argue the points made if you disagree. But I don't think it's hyperbole at all. We all know how opinions are shaped by people's opinions of certain personalities in wrestling. Was ever thus.

1 hour ago, Loki said:

I suspect Hunter is probably wilfully oblivious

This is unfathomable. Like wishing Chris Benoit was just putting his poor disabled kid out of his misery. I've no skin in this game - as in, I don't particularly dislike Triple H- but given how close Trips has been to Vince in the past, how close he is to Nick Khan, Stephanie being his partner at work and his wife/ex-wife/mother of his children, and seemingly everyone having heard/known some form of story about Vince, it's almost impossible to imagine that he didn't know.

What he knew and what he could have done to stop it is something only a proper investigation could decipher (insert massive GIF of someone laughing real hard at the prospect of a proper investigation with this bunch of carnies), but what is clear is that this stuff is systemic in this organisation and the top level all need investigating, and the wrong-uns clearing out. Until that happens, TKO are as big a bunch of frauds as Vince & co.

33 minutes ago, The Gaffer said:

I think the size of the WWE in particular will mean it's not always that cut and dry. And  to be honest your 'line' chiefly seems to come off as "I used to do what you guys do, now I don't, please hear about it loads." I'm not for a second disputing your merit or right to do that because the counterbalance is clearly needed, but it is what it is. 

I don't want that to be the case, which is why I just don't post at times. Time for that again, I think. 

33 minutes ago, The Gaffer said:

The argument becomes about "Can or should you drop one of your primary interests/hobbies/form of escapism".

  I don't think it is, personally. I think it's how can this be one of your primary interests/hobbies/form of escapism with what you know? For instance, how can anyone discuss the booking of Rhodes/Rock/Reigns and not be overwhelmed with disgust that the booker is Vince McMahon's son-in-law, is (probably) married to the woman who led a "Thank You, Vince" chant after his previous allegations, is still in place and getting away with telling the industry "media" that he didn't even read the documents? I accept that there are plenty of wrestling fans out there who want Chris Benoit in the hall of fame so I appreciate there's a bottom-feeder element who could never be reasonable but I find that harder with people who's opinion I respect, if I'm honest.

33 minutes ago, The Gaffer said:

The industry is going nowhere and neither is people's enjoyment of it. Not supporting it is a discussion - and you should have it - but there's another discussion that can run in parallel to that. That's the discussion that - if we're being honest - the industry isn't going anywhere and so the main way it's going to have to make big changes positively is from within. And that people still engaged with the industry will be the prime movers and influencers in that. And that that sort of should happen because as much as wrong'uns still make money from it, thousands of really great people still feed their families from it too and don't particularly want your dreams of wrestling just popping out of existence like a soap bubble to come to fruition. 

That's a good point. I think I've touched on it above. Change won't come while everyone does the fuck all they're doing now though, I know that.

3 minutes ago, d-d-d-dAz said:

If you've not watched a movie that had involvement from Harvey Weinstein since the #MeToo allegations i'd be absolutely amazed. Everyone does, all the time. That's engaging with a piece of shit. Should HMV stop selling the DVD's? (or whoever sells films anymore), should they all be pulled from Netflix? Should otherwise progressive actors return their royalties? No, because that's nuts.

There's probably a good chance I haven't but that's by the by. No-one is being asked to re-write history. Especially in a massively varied industry like that. There are no new Weinstein movies for for a reason but if there was, then no, of course they shouldn't be sold or bought.

Pro-wrestling isn't that varied, Vince McMahon has pretty much been the entire industry for our lifetimes. This has been a live situation for a long time. People have continued to support his company since the Ashley Massaro allegations. Since Vince "stepped down" in disgrace in 2022. Since he moved aside again recently. And they do now, even though those who enabled or ignored his behaviour are still there. 

This isn't really the thread for it because Punk shouldn't be singled out here. But until there's a proper investigation, a clearing out - from the top - of the people who are complicit and a real commitment to change, then no-one should be buying what these cunts are selling. And, to be clear, as long as the opposition are employing people like Ric Flair, then the same goes for them too. Clear out people who are no good. Put better people in key positions and commit to creating a safe environment and not repeating the mistakes.

I'm not Jim Cornette, but that's my opinion.

Just now, Devon Malcolm said:

It isn't. You will watch something or listen to something this week where someone with dreadful views was involved in its making. It's unavoidable. 

What though? What am I watching or who am I engaging with where I know what they've done? That's the line. We all know. There's no mystery here. We just want to use that so we can watch men in pants roll around. If I stick a Russell Brand DVD on tonight, then I know. And I'd be choosing to ignore everything he may have done. If I buy a loaf of bread and the CEO of W*rburton's is a paedo, then I don't. I'll mask that in case I get sued. Other bread is available.

Just now, Devon Malcolm said:

It is Hull after all.

Did Houchen tell you to say that?

1 minute ago, Devon Malcolm said:

I hope you don't think I'm trying to 'Gotcha' you or anything, we've known each other a long time. And of course, it was 15 years ago, we're all different.

I'm just making the point that it's not as cut and dry as you make out. I'm glad you work in a capacity that keeps you away from people you would rather not associate with but avoiding absolutely everything and everyone that might not sit well with you, either in the workplace or recreationally, is more or less impossible unless you go and live in a cave for the rest of your life. Everyone has their own line in the sand.

That's fine and it doesn't need a gotcha. I was still a big fan until 4-5 years ago. Of wrestling, not Marlon King. Long past the point I knew about many of the atrocities in the industry. I'm ashamed of that looking back but it's nothing you can change.

I think it is cut and dry. You either know about this stuff or you don't. And if you do, then you do what you want. I'd love everyone to never buy another ticket to watch this shit but I'm realistic enough to know it isn't ever going to happen. So watch if you want to watch. But don't defend it. There is no defence for it. There's no defence for popping into the Vince McMahon thread to show how awful you think it is, and then pop up in the Royal Rumble thread minutes later to talk about fucking Cody or Roman. You can't pretend you care about the welfare of people in the industry, particularly women, while continuing to support it. That's a nonsense. 

If the Marlon King thing happened tomorrow, I'm absolutely certain I wouldn't go to a game while he was involved. Why would anyone? We have a choice. 

19 minutes ago, air_raid said:

If you enjoyed Tornado/Bulldog/Dragon vs Warlord/Power & Glory, there's a chance you'd enjoy the match the three babyfaces also had with the three man Orient Express on the SummerSlam Spectacular which I saw on YouTube. Really rare use of Sato once the regular team had become Kato & Tanaka/Bad Company, until he came back as Shinja.

Yeah, I've seen that. Remember it being mentioned on the SCG shows Liam did with Kyle Ross. Not sure if I'd seen it before then. A three man Orient Express is definitely an odd thing to see.

8 minutes ago, Devon Malcolm said:

He played for Hull two days after he was arrested for sexual assault.

Fair play, thought he was bombed out earlier than he was. Again, it wasn't because of the assault. Saw Phil Brown a few years ago. He was only bothered that his stats showed his workrate had dropped. Imagine they would have kept him if he'd still been working and scoring goals.

You got me though, my moral code 15 years ago was obviously in question.

1 minute ago, Devon Malcolm said:

Did Marlon King keep playing for Hull after he assaulted that woman?

No, he went back to Wigan and then on loan to Middlesbrough. It was for football reasons, if we're really honest, his performances had dropped off. Probably all that clubbing and sleeping in police cells. 

1 hour ago, d-d-d-dAz said:

Life, and work, is a contradiction. Every day we have to engage with, and sometimes work for, companies that have people in their leadership who we'd feel utterly repulsed by on a one to one basis.

Do we? Who are they? I don't know of anyone that I'm dealing with, even occasionally, who is remotely on a level of these pieces of shit and I don't know of anyone who I'm supporting in any way who comes close either. If I did, I wouldn't be. That's the usual cop out to justify watching this garbage. Nobody has to stop watching but don't give the rest of us this bollocks.

19 minutes ago, Lion_of_the_Midlands said:

Everybody says shit about WWE when they leave, and everybody bar Savage either has or will go back. Punk seems to be held to a different standard to everyone else when he is still just a carny wrestler the same as the rest of them. 

We're all marks. We bought the gimmick. He created his own standard. You're right though. He's another twat amongst twats.

17 hours ago, Bettencourt said:

I think when there’s an on-going legal investigation etc going on it’s usually best to not throw about comments on it. I’m sure Punk and countless others will have been advised of this for one reason or another. 

It’s once the legal investigations are over and done with and those who were complicit held accountable then any silence would be more than deafening. 

I can't think of a bigger group of people who can't keep their gob shut about anything. It's in their interests to say nothing and hope no-one points fingers. They're all cowards. Sad but true.

14 hours ago, gmoney said:

Any match with The Warlord in it. 

The good 'Lord, if I were to nominate a match of his, it would be vs British Bulldog at WM7. I assume that's considered shite, because all of his work is, but to me it's a belter. 

I haven't seen it in years but when I was a kid, I got the UK Rampage tape and I fucking loved that Warlord/Anvil opener. I absolutely loved the backstage promo later too. Warlord's in the opener on SummerSlam that year, which is a real sleeper favourite of mine, and the match with Davey at Mania is decent too. I liked him. No idea why he was so shit in Royal Rumbles.

I think we watched a good contender for the shittest film ever made. 10 Things We Should Do Before We Break Up which I was only really into to see what Christina Ricci looks like. It's only 1hr 14mins which is insane but a blessing too. It doesn't have an ending. probably because it's only 1hr 14mins. It has the horribly overused trope of text messages popping up on the screen. It has this thing where they just reduce the dialogue down to silence and then the next scene just happens. They do it once when they're having a disagreement and then the next scene is them walking in through a front door to start shagging. I suspect they think it's clever but it's lazy nonsense. No-one in the film is remotely likeable, except perhaps Ricci's ex who is in about 2 short scenes. Her best friend seems to exist just to ask questions the viewer is asking but they're not answered satisfactorily. It's got 4.7/10 on IMDB and that's more generous than 2023 Dave Meltzer. Garbage.

I've watched loads of films in the last 6 weeks. Though when I say loads, it's probably still less than Bacon or DM watch in a day. I watched Blow Up. That's an odd film. I watched it 2 weeks ago and I still haven't decided whether I liked it or not. It's a brilliant bit of film making and a lovely little time capsule of 60s London but the plot and the people are ridiculous. Anyone discussed it previously?

18 hours ago, DavidB6937 said:

Purely from an "I was there and I got chills":

 

I wasn't there so it's a meh entrance of a bloke who looks a bit like John Cena.

A couple of Cena ones I've watched a hundred times are the One Night Stand 2 entrance, obviously, and the Royal Rumble 2008 return. Incredible.

11 minutes ago, Loki said:

I'm openly not a fan of Punk but I can't see that he has anything to contribute about a scandal that happened whilst he wasn't even part of the company.  Yes, he's worked there before but so had almost every wrestler who ever lived.  It's not like he's Vince's best mate like Cena, or related to him like HHH.

He just signed a deal with a cunt who definitely knows everything. They're all fair game for criticism. Scumbags.

That said, I agree it's got no relevance here. 

56 minutes ago, SuperBacon said:

Think the Survivor Series one was more special

Fuck, no.

56 minutes ago, SuperBacon said:

Also, can't find a decent clip but Hart Foundation at Canadian Stampede. Genuinely the best reaction ever.

Fuck, yes.

A belter. So good, Billy Graham can't spoil it.

33 minutes ago, Fog Dude said:

As mentioned upthread, they didn't send Perth this show - the state government of Western Australia actively courted it and for those who were watching live the event was heavily punctuated by tourism ads. 

If you ordered a surprise box and they send you a box of shit, you'd still be upset. Unless you'd ordered it from UKFFCrates.com and then you should have known better.