The new MMA general news, events and thoughts thread

[Egg Shen]

i agree with what your saying, but after a build up, gimme the hype and come fight night, i'll be shitting myself with anticipation...and thats what its all about for me.And who really argues?? i think the only people that question these kinds of things are the diehard fans that are in the know and that are gonna tune in whether they critisize it or not, the casual fan (which is 90% of audience) couldn't give a toss.

[Rey_Piste]

David calls the man a joke because he doesn't like his 'schtick'. The one thing Chael does is back it up in the cage, if he didn't he'd have no right to be in the conversation but he's got to where he is through hard work.

To say Chael backs it up in the cage is stretching it a bit. He's not progressed as a fighter since his days at WEC. The only thing to change is him talking shit. If you look at his past fights there's the first loss to Silva where everyone was amazed at how well he did, but that due to Silva's fucked ribs. Then post suspension he beat Stann and scraped a win against Bisping before getting decimated against Silva again. If he fought Jones he'd only get smashed again, I give Griffin the edge against Sonnen. Putting him straight into a title fight would be a shambles.

[lambyUK]

For me it's the fact that people seem to think that Sonnen's in the elite when in reality he's just a great wrestler that can cut a promo. He's finished 1 fight in his whole UFC career & built a reputation on a gimmick & nearly getting a decision over a heavily injured Anderson Silva. He's not in the top 5 at LHW & shouldn't be anywhere near the belt.

The problem is you are forgetting the UFC are a business as well. There are simply no worthy challengers right now and if you threw someone out of the current crop of LH's at Jon Jones it would tank. Sonnen seems to be the only matchup that a large portion of the fans want to see right now. Everyone knows it's a stop gap till we get a couple of new contenders, but there's nothing wrong with that.The fact you are questioning Sonnen's credentials as he hasn't finished many opponents is a bit ridiculous too. GSP hasn't finished an opponent in god knows how long but he's still considered number 2 or 3 best P4P in the world. The list of people Sonnen has beaten personally puts him above some of the current guys in LH, especially his wins over Stann and Bisping who were both once LH's.

[lambyUK]

David calls the man a joke because he doesn't like his 'schtick'. The one thing Chael does is back it up in the cage, if he didn't he'd have no right to be in the conversation but he's got to where he is through hard work.

To say Chael backs it up in the cage is stretching it a bit. He's not progressed as a fighter since his days at WEC. The only thing to change is him talking shit. If you look at his past fights there's the first loss to Silva where everyone was amazed at how well he did, but that due to Silva's fucked ribs. Then post suspension he beat Stann and scraped a win against Bisping before getting decimated against Silva again. If he fought Jones he'd only get smashed again, I give Griffin the edge against Sonnen. Putting him straight into a title fight would be a shambles.

You're having a laugh Rey? Sonnen's not progressed since WEC? He's got better and better and personally believe we saw the best Sonnen against Brian Stann. His takedowns were methodical, his submission defence was notably improved, and he actually pulled out a lovely submission. He has improved considerably as a fighter.He scraped by Michael Bisping? And that's shameful is it? Bisping's record is fantastic in the UFC and he's only been beaten by few elite guys including decision loses against a prime Tito Ortiz, Rashad Evans, and Wanderlei Silva. Then you have his only knockout loss against Dan Henderson. For Sonnen to be included in those list of defeats is something of a major achievement personally.Then blaming SIlva's first performance on fucked ribs? Almost every fighters goes into a fight injured, that's nothing new. Even Sonnen before that first fight was saying he was ill.

[Rey_Piste]

Stann's not all that great to begin with and it was his first finish not to go to decision. Then you only have to compare the 2 fights to see that Silva was injured, otherwise Sonnen wouldn't get a look in.

[lambyUK]

Stann's not all that great to begin with and it was his first finish not to go to decision. Then you only have to compare the 2 fights to see that Silva was injured, otherwise Sonnen wouldn't get a look in.

So Sonnen dominating that first round against Silva wasn't getting a look in during their rematch? I see you've also conveniently ignored my point relating to Bisping?I agree, Stann is not that great, but it doesn't mean Sonnen didn't shows signs of improvement in his game during that fight. I would also like to argue that it was Sonnen's attempts at improving his game that actually cost him his rematch against Silva. After dominating the first his ridiculous attempt of showing something new (the spinning elbow) is what put him on his arse for Silva to finish the fight.

[jimufctna24]

I like Jones vs Sonnen being compared to Tyson vs Lewis.Chael is in my eyes elite, and he has improved a lot since 2006. He is nothing flashy but he is effective, he has even improved since 2009 when Maia caught him.He trains better, he ditched Matt Lindland and set up his own camp tailored around him and unlike Brock he checks his ego at the door, Vinny Malgares being brought in proves that.Chael for me is number 2 or 3 at 185lbs, where he would stand at 205lbs I am not sure. It is not without reason he could make top 5. Sonnen's trash talk I lap up, I know its not to everyone's taste, but I love it.I never really considered Tyson vs Lewis before, because that would be a example of a mainstream sport overlooking the fact that Tyson was not number 2. People treated that as a sport and a spectacle, it was not relegated to the fringes like NASCAR. Even at only 14 I knew David Tua and Vitali were better than Iron Mike at that stage, but either did not know or really care.MMA is closer to boxing than any other sport or past time, they both have elements of Pro Wrestling in them. Both are two men fighting, its at its best when there is a reason for them to fight that makes the masses care. I would welcome Chael vs Jones, I understand the argument against it with others being overlooked, but Chael has enough talent in the cage for me to overlook him being fast tracked.

[Supremo]

Jones vs Sonnen would be a great fight with great build up. However, UFC isn't WWE, and to argue for Sonnen/Jones to take place ASAP is a very WWE mentality, by pairing up the two most over guys up for a feud. UFC is a sport that's trying to legitimise itself, and to give a title shot to a guy coming off a loss in another title fight is ridiculous.If he fights Griffin and beats him, then by all means, Sonnen/Jones would be ace. Right now though, it isn't deserved, and I think it would cause huge damage to the perception of legitimacy in the UFC if Sonnen got a shot just because he cuts great promos. At least with Anderson, his trash talk was backed up by winning fights.

As a UFC fan, I want to see them succeed. It's that simple. I want to see them succeed and I've studied it enough to know what will and won't succeed. Accordingly, I know that if you put the Forrest fight on and Sonnen loses then you lose out on what will most likely be the best and most successful season of The Ultimate Fighter in years and one of the biggest fights of 2013. Similarly, I know that if you rush the Sonnen vs. Jones fight you'll get a tiny minority of fans moaning about legitimacy, but ultimately it won't matter one bit. We call that the, "Brock Lesnar," rule.That's the crux here. The tiny minority moan about legitimacy, failing to realise that nobody bar them actually cares. The UFC is built on doing things hardcore fans believed would hurt the legitimacy of the sport and in every single instance nobody really gave a shit and it resulted in huge success. I can list them if you want. And by contrast, they've spent the last year doing more, "legitimate," things that hardcore fans approved of and it all bombed horrifically. Business wise, the only shining light this year has been when Chael P. Sonnen showed up, acted in a way that supposedly harmed the legitimacy of the sport, and ended up breaking a shit load of records. There's your legitimacy.

The greatness? Sonnen's schtick got old after the 1st Anderson fight. You're seriously entertained by a guy who just talks complete nonsense? I can understand the attraction to a pro wrestling fan like yourself of someone who can build a fight and all that jazz, but Sonnen is considered a joke figure now. People don't get hot at what he says, they laugh at him.He's become something of a parody of himself already. When you can't even get a rise out of the hardcore MMA fan you know your gimmick has run its course.

We've already covered this. Leading into the Anderson fight you were saying the same stuff and the only difference between my retort then and my retort now is that there's even more evidence that you're talking nonsense. Not only did it do the biggest North American gate ever and the second biggest gate of all time, it also went on, as predicted, to host the biggest weigh in of all time and the year's biggest buy rate too. It also played a big part in Chael becoming a television darling, with everyone wanting a piece of him. Not bad for somebody considered a parody and a joke, eh?If you don't like Sonnen, that's fine. If you misunderstand what he does and think he's somehow failing if people laugh at him, then that's fine too. But just admit as much. Stop adding this imaginary credence and weight to it as if you're in the majority. You aren't. "People," don't consider Chael a joke. "People," fucking love Chael. His schtick works. They understands what he's doing, get caught up in it, and then pay in their millions to see the fights he promotes. All the evidence in the world proves this.We went through all of this when Brock was top. You disliked him, but instead of just admitting as much you would hide behind thinly veiled arguments like, "he's bad for the sport," which were equally as ridiculous.

Aside from that, he'll get absolutely humiliated against Jones. You saw what happened against Anderson in that 2nd frame, didn't you? He'll get completely destroyed. He has no business being in the same building as someone like Jones on a talent level.

I don't care if Sonnen loses. I know Jones will likely destroy him and I don't care. Same with the Anderson fight earlier this year. It went exactly as I predicted and I didn't care. What I care about is that it'll result in a fantastic, fun build up, a brilliant season of The Ultimate Fighter and a huge success for the UFC by the time the fight rolls around. Perfect.I remember having these same discussions in 2006. I knew Ken Shamrock didn't stand a chance against Tito Ortiz. I knew that Ken didn't belong in the same building as him in terms of talent. I knew people called him a joke and a parody. But I didn't care. It still resulted in a fantastic, fun build up, a brilliant season of The Ultimate Fighter and a huge success for the UFC by the time the fight rolled around. Out of interest, were you one of the people moaning then, too? Genuine question.

i agree with what your saying, but after a build up, gimme the hype and come fight night, i'll be shitting myself with anticipation...and thats what its all about for me.And who really argues?? i think the only people that question these kinds of things are the diehard fans that are in the know and that are gonna tune in whether they critisize it or not, the casual fan (which is 90% of audience) couldn't give a toss.

Spot on.

[Egg Shen]

Great post!

[Egg Shen]

Great post.Great post.

[David]

We've already covered this. Leading into the Anderson fight you were saying the same stuff and the only difference between my retort then and my retort now is that there's even more evidence that you're talking nonsense. Not only did it do the biggest North American gate ever and the second biggest gate of all time, it also went on, as predicted, to host the biggest weigh in of all time and the year's biggest buy rate too. It also played a big part in Chael becoming a television darling, with everyone wanting a piece of him. Not bad for somebody considered a parody and a joke, eh?

Has Dana White spent the past three or four years banging on about how MMA is a "real sport"? I believe he has, and this is where I have an issue with all of this shit. I understand this is a pro wrestling forum, and that you're simply lifting your pro wrestling equations and moving them to MMA, which is fine if the UFC were happy to admit that winning titles and headlining PPV's was not a reflection of sporting ability or athletic ability, but in who sells the most merch and who can cut a great promo. I watched all of the stuff with Ken Shamrock and Tito Ortiz, and no, I wasn't moaning then because the UFC weren't trying to pass themselves off as some sort of legit sporting organisation at the time. They weren't running shows with their studio sets lifted direct from football and baseball. They were a niche sport, and I was more than happy with that.

If you don't like Sonnen, that's fine.

Funnily enough, that isn't the case. When Sonnen steps into the cage I'm as big a fan of him as you'll ever meet. When you strip away all the theatrics he's basically a grinding wrestler, which anyone who reads these forums will know is my kind of guy.Fuck, I even have a photo with him when I saw him fight Justin Bailey in California almost ten years ago. I've followed his career since then, and have always been a fan. The "triple threat" of him, Hendo & Matt Lindland were always favourites of mine, and I liked their no-nonsense, down to business style.Somewhere along the line Sonnen decided to become a pro wrestler. I have no idea why, but this "character" that he has now isn't the way he always was. If he had decided to amp up his actual personality then I'd have been all over that kind of thing. He didn't though, he started walking around with a fake belt, pretending that he'd never lost a fight and other nonsense. For anyone to honestly tell me that a sport reporter working on the UFC won't find it ridiculous that he's pretending to be unbeaten is laughable. He's got a pro wrestling schtick, and I understand that pro wrestling fans are going to love it. It's just worth remembering that pro wrestling is mocked and ridiculed by the mainstream & sports media.

If you misunderstand what he does and think he's somehow failing if people laugh at him, then that's fine too. But just admit as much. Stop adding this imaginary credence and weight to it as if you're in the majority. You aren't. "People," don't consider Chael a joke. "People," fucking love Chael. His schtick works. They understands what he's doing, get caught up in it, and then pay in their millions to see the fights he promotes. All the evidence in the world proves this.

Yeah, the evidence is right there. What were the buys for his last PPV outing against Brian Stann? What about his FOX win over Bisping? I'm assuming that show blew the inaugural UFC on FOX right out the water as far as viewers went, eh?This will go the exact same way as your ridiculous point about Kimbo Slice, and how he was a "star". People saw him initially, the big beard, the mean mugging and all that, coupled with his Youtube fame and tuned in until they realised he wasn't actually any fucking good.The planets aligned for Chael when he faced Anderson the first time out with the rib injury, but the 2nd fight exposed the first fight for what it was. A fluke. Sonnen is a decent, mid-level middleweight. No amount of promo skills will change that.

I don't care if Sonnen loses. I know Jones will likely destroy him and I don't care. Same with the Anderson fight earlier this year. It went exactly as I predicted and I didn't care. What I care about is that it'll result in a fantastic, fun build up, a brilliant season of The Ultimate Fighter and a huge success for the UFC by the time the fight rolls around. Perfect.

The problem is, much like Kimbo, people are starting to care. There's only so many times that people will get amped up by his chat only to tune in and see him grind out results like he did against Bisping, or get his backside kicked like he did against Anderson.They can't script him to win, or script him to be in a 4* classic of a match like they can in pro wrestling. Again, like Kimbo, if he doesn't have the actual goods to match the hype when he steps into the cage he's going to see his numbers wane and interest decrease. The way he was decimated against Silva has already put a major dent in his drawing power. He may be able to work something off the whole Jones/Henderson thing that he hijacked, but both the company and him better make sure they go to town with it, as another bad loss will see him relegated back to the midcard, and no amount of promo skills will be able to change that.You're also correct in wanting the Griffin fight scrapped. Sonnen doesn't win that. He lost to Forrest before, and he will again. Unanimous decision without doubt.

We went through all of this when Brock was top. You disliked him, but instead of just admitting as much you would hide behind thinly veiled arguments like, "he's bad for the sport," which were equally as ridiculous.

The way the company decided to hotshot him to the title was a joke. He was exposed badly by Velasquez and Overeem. Credit to him though, he certainly did much better than I thought he would, even if his fights were carefully chosen by the company until they had to put him in there with the top guys in the division.

So Sonnen dominating that first round against Silva wasn't getting a look in during their rematch? I see you've also conveniently ignored my point relating to Bisping?

He took him down and basically lay on him for five minutes. There's no way he was going to be able to do that for twenty five minutes. Anderson came in a lot fitter than he was in the first bout, and it was simply business as usual.

[Supremo]

Great post!

Thanks! Cool sig by the way.

Has Dana White spent the past three or four years banging on about how MMA is a "real sport"? I believe he has, and this is where I have an issue with all of this shit. I understand this is a pro wrestling forum, and that you're simply lifting your pro wrestling equations and moving them to MMA, which is fine if the UFC were happy to admit that winning titles and headlining PPV's was not a reflection of sporting ability or athletic ability, but in who sells the most merch and who can cut a great promo.

None of this has anything to do with the point I made. I don't care about what Dana says. Stop moving goalposts. My point was that you keep attributing personal opinion to the masses and attaching imaginary credence and weight to things. Dislike Chael's promos all you want. Sit stoney-faced throughout his press conferences if you must. But don't talk shit about them not working, getting old, or making him into a laughing stock to the majority of fans or media because there's evidence to the absolute contrary. That's my point.

Somewhere along the line Sonnen decided to become a pro wrestler. I have no idea why, but this "character" that he has now isn't the way he always was. If he had decided to amp up his actual personality then I'd have been all over that kind of thing. He didn't though, he started walking around with a fake belt, pretending that he'd never lost a fight and other nonsense. For anyone to honestly tell me that a sport reporter working on the UFC won't find it ridiculous that he's pretending to be unbeaten is laughable. He's got a pro wrestling schtick, and I understand that pro wrestling fans are going to love it. It's just worth remembering that pro wrestling is mocked and ridiculed by the mainstream & sports media.

UFC 148 was attended by more sports media than any other event in the company's history. Some described it as double any other event. And following the fight FOX, one of the most popular networks in America, wanted to suck Chael's cock. I don't think Chael's got anything to worry about in terms of sports media or the mainstream. Both fucking love him. They probably understand that you're not supposed to take him seriously when he says he's undefeated, too.

If you misunderstand what he does and think he's somehow failing if people laugh at him, then that's fine too. But just admit as much. Stop adding this imaginary credence and weight to it as if you're in the majority. You aren't. "People," don't consider Chael a joke. "People," fucking love Chael. His schtick works. They understands what he's doing, get caught up in it, and then pay in their millions to see the fights he promotes. All the evidence in the world proves this.

Yeah, the evidence is right there. What were the buys for his last PPV outing against Brian Stann? What about his FOX win over Bisping? I'm assuming that show blew the inaugural UFC on FOX right out the water as far as viewers went, eh?

In attempting to disprove Chael's ability to generate interest using his promos, you're citing a fight (against Stann) where he refused to cut any promos and another (against Bisping) where he only had eight days notice? Not the best examples, are they? Since we're on the topic though; the Bisping fight did pretty good actually, certainly compared to the FOX shows that followed it.Plus, your original point was that, "Sonnen's schtick got old after the 1st Anderson fight." That's what you said. So regardless of any other examples, the success of the second Anderson fight (which by the laws of time comes after the first) disproves your statement automatically.

This will go the exact same way as your ridiculous point about Kimbo Slice, and how he was a "star". People saw him initially, the big beard, the mean mugging and all that, coupled with his Youtube fame and tuned in until they realised he wasn't actually any fucking good.

The more you bring the Kimbo thing up the more I'm going to keep sending you here to re-read how I've already explained it. Please try and understand it this time. It doesn't matter whether Kimbo kept winning or not. Or that his star eventually dropped. At the time, and in the history books, he was still a big star that did big business. Same thing here. If Chael's star drops, that doesn't change the fact that right now he's a massive star that's done huge business. Your inability to detach tenses from one another is well strange. If I say that Chuck Liddell had a great chin, would you argue I'm incorrect because eventually he had a weak chin?

I don't care if Sonnen loses. I know Jones will likely destroy him and I don't care. Same with the Anderson fight earlier this year. It went exactly as I predicted and I didn't care. What I care about is that it'll result in a fantastic, fun build up, a brilliant season of The Ultimate Fighter and a huge success for the UFC by the time the fight rolls around. Perfect.

The problem is, much like Kimbo, people are starting to care.

What evidence do you have of this? And who are these, "people," you're once again referring to? If it's the tiny minority of hardcore fans then they simply don't count.

The way he was decimated against Silva has already put a major dent in his drawing power.

And what's your evidence for this? It's all guess work and personal opinion until Chael has another fight where he uses his promos to build interest.I'll stop here because nothing else you've said really addresses my point. You keep going off on mad tangents about fighting ability and who Chael could or couldn't beat, none of which I've referenced as it's not something you can categorically discuss.

[Egg Shen]

I score that round 10-9 to Supremo.

[Supremo]

Jake Shields publicly stated that he was suspended for six months from the Colorado State Athletic Commission stemming from testing positive for a banned substance taken prior to his 8/11 win over Ed Herman in Denver.There is no word what substance he was referring to and whether his win over Herman will be rescinded.

fwonline.com

[David]

None of this has anything to do with the point I made. I don't care about what Dana says. Stop moving goalposts.

It has everything to do with the point I've been making though. My whole issue with the way the UFC & White have been approaching things surfaced from the point he started banging on about the UFC being a legit sporting league. Do you actually read anyone else's posts before jumping in with your own stuff?The UFC are either a legit sporting company, or they aren't.If Dana hadn't made the noises he did then I'd have no issue with the UFC basically being a cooler version of WWE. It was like that way back during the SpikeTV days.

UFC 148 was attended by more sports media than any other event in the company's history. Some described it as double any other event.

As I said, the planets aligned for Sonnen in that first fight with Silva, meaning it was far more competitive than it really should have been. The fact that he pushed the #1 fighter on the planet to lengths that had never before been seen was the reason why UFC 148 was so intriguing.

Plus, your original point was that, "Sonnen's schtick got old after the 1st Anderson fight." That's what you said. So regardless of any other examples, the success of the second Anderson fight (which by the laws of time comes after the first) disproves your statement automatically.

His schtick did get old, and it didn't play as much a part in selling the second fight as you're making out if you ask me. As mentioned, the intrigue after how the first fight went was the main selling point the second time around. Could Sonnen repeat his performance and maybe even go a step further?It's no real surprise that he lost that fight convincingly and went on to draw disappointing numbers at 136, where he featured relatively far down the card. A loss to Griffin will see that trend continue in my opinion. He'll have nowhere to go after that, because the truth is, he may have great promo skills and have all the backing in the world from pro wrestling fans, but if he isn't winning fights his popularity will decline.