Boxing Thread

[wandshogun09]

Apparently King was in some bother with John Gotti for a while and feared for his life. He owed the mob a lot of money and they were losing patience. It's also thought that a big part of the reason King ripped his fighters off so much, as well as being a greedy bastard, was because he was always owing money to the mob and had to kick back a percentage of his money to them.

 

There was a great bit in the book where there was a huge undercover investigation going on into King's dealings which could have finally seen him brought down. They got some undercover cop to pose as a wealthy drug dealer looking to co-promote to see if King would incriminate himself, they had him wired and all sorts, but the plug was pulled on the sting before any shit really stuck to King. He was up for it as well but the fear was that the FBI couldn't go all the way and promote an actual fight due to fears incase a fighter died (a Korean fighter had recently died from injuries in a televised fight with Ray Mancini) and if it came out the FBI was behind the fight, there'd be a huge shitstorm. The feeling was they were on course to really finally nailing King if that investigation had been allowed to play out.

[jimufctna24]

The way he swooped in to take control of Tyson after Jim Jacobs died, already making his move at the funeral, next to the casket!

I am reading about this subject in the Twice Bitten book I am half way through. It is all very similar to the story in Rocky 5 where Don King is parodied.

 

It is my opinion that if King had not swayed Tyson away from Kevin Rooney and Steve Lott, then the losses to Buster Douglas and Holyfield would have not happened. The deaths of Cus and Jacobs were the worst things to happen to Tyson's career (except maybe the prison stint). Tyson was a fighter who needed direction and not "yes men" like he had in the 90's after King took over. I am confident in thinking under the right guidance Tyson would have beaten Lewis in the 90's, as well as the underrated Riddick Bowe (another fighter who needed the right direction)

 

I will be buying the King book at some point, thanks for the recommendation

Edited July 22, 2013 by jimufctna24

[wandshogun09]

It's really worth reading. There's a good documentary on YouTube, also by Jack Newfield who wrote the book, where you see a rare case where King drops the public front and the charming patter and goes mental at Newfield. It's covered in the book as well with backstory, but the footage is quite something to see. It's very rare that King let his public mask slip but he really went off on one there. The doc is called Don King: Unauthorized.

 

It is my opinion that if King had not swayed Tyson away from Kevin Rooney and Steve Lott, then the losses to Buster Douglas and Holyfield would have not happened. The deaths of Cus and Jacobs were the worst things to happen to Tyson's career (except maybe the prison stint). Tyson was a fighter who needed direction and not "yes men" like he had in the 90's after King took over.

 

It's difficult to say for sure if he'd have beat Douglas and Holyfield. You'd think he'd have beat Douglas for sure, on talent alone. From all accounts Tyson wasn't best prepared going into that fight, he was getting dropped in sparring and all sorts. But on the other hand, Douglas had huge motivation for that fight. He had nothing to lose and everything to gain. His wife had left him, the mother of his kid was dying of a terminal illness and then a couple of weeks before the fight his Mom died. It pushed him to give the fight of his life. Tyson had been living that wild life for a while, and was still knocking opponents out. So you have to give Douglas some credit too, he dominated Tyson, got off the canvas from a Tyson knockdown to come back and KO Tyson.

 

Holyfield might have been too much of a warrior for Tyson as well. He was fearless and had fought wars. Teddy Atlas was saying Tyson never really responded well to guys like that, who wouldn't be intimidated or wilt under his initial attacks. Even while Tyson was undefeated and thought unstoppable, Atlas voiced these concerns from something he'd seen in Tyson from early on.

 

He certainly had the skills and power to beat both, but I wouldn't be confident saying he'd have beat them. Of course, this is all with the benefit of hindsight. If I was a fan in 1990, I'd definitely have expected Tyson to mop the ring with Douglas, like the rest of the world did. I think I did expect him to beat Holyfield as well at the time.

 

I definitely agree with your main point though. Tyson's original boxing family of Cus D'Amato, Jim Jacobs, Bill Cayton, Kevin Rooney, Teddy Atlas etc were the best for him. There was still problems though (the old story of Atlas holding a gun to teenage Tyson's head for touching up Atlas' 11 or 12 year old sister in law). But on the whole they were steering his career in the right direction.

 

Here's an interesting part of the King book, comparing Tyson's career under Cus/Jacobs etc to Tyson's career under King;

 

During nineteen months as champion, when Cayton and Jacobs controlled his career, Tyson earned $48.5 million, and was undefeated in eight fights from November 1986, till June 1988. He received endorsement contracts from Toyota, Diet Pepsi, and Nintendo.

 

Under Don King, from 1989 to 1991, Tyson also had eight fights, earning $29 million on paper. He received no commercial endorsement contracts.

 

And King ripped him of relentlessly. Both before he went to jail, during his jail term, and after. Look at some of the shit King used Tyson's money for;

 

*King's personal bodyguards were paid with Tyson's money.

*King's travel bills.

*King's two sons were getting $50K each out of Tyson's purse each fight for a while.

*King's daughter was getting $1,000 a week, so around $50K a year, plus bonuses, as 'the president of Tyson's fan club'. She wasn't even opening his fan mail. Her husband got $15K of Tyson's purse per fight for a while as a 'consultant'. All apparently bollocks job titles, it was money for nothing.

*And King had his house renovated on Tyson's dime as well. Bold as brass.

 

Then there was Tyson's wife Robin Givens, who it's quoted in the book, spent her way through about $1 million of Tyson's money in the first few weeks of their marriage.

 

There's stuff in the book that King even took money from Tim Witherspoon's fight purses, charging him expenses for his protective cup ($98), skip rope ($13) and hand wraps ($5) for fuck's sake. Unbelievable.

 

To add insult to injury, Witherspoon later found out that King had flown most of the jurors who acquitted him in 1985 to be guests of the promotion, in ringside seats at his fight with Bruno.

 

Juror John Becker, a word processor for a Big Eight accounting firm, says King paid for his plane tickets, hotel rooms, and meals, as well as providing the ringside tickets. The fighter had to pay for his own protective cup, but the juror traveled first-class for free.

 

One bit that stuck with me was how much a big hard bastard like Larry Holmes legitimately feared King and what he was capable of. At one point in the 80s, Holmes was trying to leave King for Bob Arum. King wasn't having it;

 

Holmes;

 

"I said I wanted to talk to Arum again. I never saw Don's face get the way it got, like he was in pain. His eyes turned cold and empty. He said real quietly, 'If you do, I'll have your legs broke.' Not for a single minute did I think he was kidding. Not for a single minute did I think it wasn't a real threat. And not for a single minute did I doubt Don could find the people to do the job...The first thing I did when I got back to Easton was pick me up a .22 caliber Smith & Wesson."

 

 

"If you do, I'll have your legs broke."

 

Chilling.

 

I haven't read Twice Bitten. I think I'll read Herbie Hide's book next, I've had it gathering dust for a few months now.

[jimufctna24]

If King and Givens would have not had their way, Tyson would have had Rooney to steer him through the Douglas fight. The softy in me is kinda glad Douglas won that night, even as a Tyson fan. Douglas had it mega rough going in, and even had horrendous cold a few days before the fight. It was one of Tyson's worst nights in the ring.

 

Teddy Atlas is a reliable source and his claim does hold weight, as he predicted Tyson would get DQ'ed against Holyfield the 2nd time round as "a way out" However, Tyson did not get lose his head at the moment people predicted. Whilst Holyfield won the first two rounds, Tyson was bossing the third until he decided to go ear biting, the momentum was in Tyson corner. Remember, both were arguably past their best at this stage also.

 

Tyson whilst at his best under Rooney/Jacobs, did have success with Richie Giachetti who King employed at various stages and was responsible for the Iron Mike who ran riot between the Douglas fight and the prison time. Giachetti was at loggerheads with King for Mike's post prison fights until the second Holyfield fight. It was the same King inspired "yes men" who steered Tyson in the first Holyfield fight.

 

If Giachetti could have controlled Mike that night enhanced Tyson's performance like he did in earlier years, I believe he would have beaten Holyfield who in retrospect I admire, but think was a tad overrated (and yes, feel free to call this rich coming from a Tyson fan) The Tyson under Rooney/Jacobs and the one Giachetti managed to enhance I think would have been Champion a lot longer, they molded his raw talent that alone was too much for the likes of Bruno and Berbick to handle. Holyfield was a step up from them, as he was more skilled and harder to phase mentally.

 

It was always discipline and laziness that beat Tyson up until age caught up in my view. Although, I stand by Riddick Bowe being a bigger waste of talent, who in his Holyfield trilogy days could have beaten the Vitali and Wlad of today in my opinion.

Edited July 22, 2013 by jimufctna24

[wandshogun09]

Yeah, there's a lot of stuff about Giachetti in this book as well. Also, after Tyson and Robin Givens marriage went tits up, Tyson was a wreck and still grieving over Jim Jacobs death, and at one point was going to leave King and go back to Bill Cayton. Cayton laid out a 6 fight plan that would have bagged Tyson around $50 million and had him back under the watchful eye of Kevin Rooney. That might have been just what he needed at the time but Don King wormed his way back in, poisoned Tyson against Cayton again, and that was that.

 

Agreed on Bowe. A massive waste, often times because of his massive waist. The Holyfield trilogy was fantastic, one of my favourites ever. Especially for heavyweights. The first fight was a classic, second had that nutter parachute in halfway through, third saw Bowe finally stop Holyfield. Great fights. He had the skills, he had a bit of an unpredictable edge to him like Tyson, but he ballooned up between fights. He took too much damage as well. If you listen to him speak early in his career, it's night and day listening to him slurring and mumbling after the Holyfield series. Even worse now. Sad to see.

 

Holyfield was a dirty fighter at times. He did it in a few fights but he was headbutting loads in those Tyson fights. I like him but I can't deny it. He had some incredible fights in his day though. The Bowe series is well documented, but his fights with Foreman, Dokes and Qawi were awesome as well. The Dokes and Qawi fights are forgotten/unknown gems to many who aren't hardcore boxing fans. I only first saw them myself a couple of years ago, well worth watching. Holyfield was like a trained attack dog in his day. He was great to watch.

[jimufctna24]

Yeah, there's a lot of stuff about Giachetti in this book as well. Also, after Tyson and Robin Givens marriage went tits up, Tyson was a wreck and still grieving over Jim Jacobs death, and at one point was going to leave King and go back to Bill Cayton. Cayton laid out a 6 fight plan that would have bagged Tyson around $50 million and had him back under the watchful eye of Kevin Rooney. That might have been just what he needed at the time but Don King wormed his way back in, poisoned Tyson against Cayton again, and that was that.

The bit bolded is new to me, I did know King plotted against Tyson's regular crew and won, but I thought Cayton faded away due to King. I know Rooney was fired by Tyson for comments about Givens. If Cayton and Jacobs would have informed Tyson that Jacobs was dying a before he past, the seeds of mistrust towards Cayton may have not been planted in Tyson's head. Cus knew King was bad news from the start from what you hear as well. King knew how to pick his spots, when other promoters were thinking of offering Tyson fights when he got out of jail, King was in jail visiting Mike to butter him up.

 

One thing I can give Holyfield over Tyson/Bowe is the mental game. Evander in the 2nd Bowe fight did not let the "fan man" distort his game like Bowe did. The result was a points win for Holyfield in a fight he may have lost otherwise (although to be fair, Bowe had meant to have half arsed in training, so maybe Holyfield would have won anyway)

 

Also, he did not react as badly as others would have had when Tyson bit his ear, he admits he was tempted to bit back "a ear for an ear" if you like, but he resisted and came out better for it. Holyfield from what I read always had his critics. Question marks over PED's clouded him, and he was named in the BALCO thing in the end. Still a great Heavyweight though, I think he was past it by the time Lewis and Ruiz beat him, at his best he would have beaten Ruiz and maybe would have beaten Lewis.

Edited July 22, 2013 by jimufctna24

[wandshogun09]

Yeah, King manipulated Tyson using the race card a lot as well. King got wind Tyson was going back with Cayton and tracked him down and played a blinder, within days Cayton and Tyson's real friends like Mark Breland couldn't get hold of him, and Tyson was talking bad about Cayton again.

 

Even Robin Givens, who was always at odds with Cayton, phoned Cayton sometime after she divorced Tyson. She apologised for all the bad things she'd said about Cayton, and when Cayton asked why she'd said them, she said King told her a pack of lies about him. King was a master shit stirrer. Played everyone off against each other perfectly to get what he wanted.

 

On the 'fan man' fight, I'm sure on Legendary Nights they said Bowe's wife (pregnant at the time I think), collapsed in the crowd, which no doubt added to Bowe's mentally falling apart that night. But yeah, Holyfield I think seemed mentally tougher anyway.

[Mr Lawrence]

Froch Groves is confirmed. Think sometime in November, maybe the same night as Pac mans fight.

 

Bowe was on Buncey lastnight, came across quite well, slurred speach on him mind. Hes seems a chilled out cat.

[jimufctna24]

Froch Groves is confirmed. Think sometime in November, maybe the same night as Pac mans fight.

Yep, November 23rd in Manchester is heavily rumored. Hopefully going to take my brother as its his Birthday on the 24th. I like both, but I am leaning towards a Froch win, massive step up for Groves.

 

Yeah, King manipulated Tyson using the race card a lot as well. King got wind Tyson was going back with Cayton and tracked him down and played a blinder, within days Cayton and Tyson's real friends like Mark Breland couldn't get hold of him, and Tyson was talking bad about Cayton again.

 

Even Robin Givens, who was always at odds with Cayton, phoned Cayton sometime after she divorced Tyson. She apologised for all the bad things she'd said about Cayton, and when Cayton asked why she'd said them, she said King told her a pack of lies about him. King was a master shit stirrer. Played everyone off against each other perfectly to get what he wanted.

 

On the 'fan man' fight, I'm sure on Legendary Nights they said Bowe's wife (pregnant at the time I think), collapsed in the crowd, which no doubt added to Bowe's mentally falling apart that night. But yeah, Holyfield I think seemed mentally tougher anyway.

 

Some of this is covered in Twice Bitten, but until this info it was never fully explained how Cayton faded away, nor why Givens was in King's pocket. Makes more sense to me now. King is smarter than he gives off, I will give him that.

Edited July 23, 2013 by jimufctna24

[Egg Shen]

Did Bowe speak about his recent disastrous attempt at Muay Thai?

 

He made a brief appearence on Ringside last week too, and despite the clear physical deterioation he seemed in good spirits.

[Loki]

Not strictly boxing, but there's a documentary on tonight about Frank Bruno and his battle with depression post-career. Interesting for Frank fans. He was on Breakfast this morning, diminished but still a lovely fella.

[wandshogun09]

What channel is the Bruno documentary on Loki?

[Brock Goldberg]

What channel is the Bruno documentary on Loki?

 

BBC Three 9 pm.

[Mr Lawrence]

Did Bowe speak about his recent disastrous attempt at Muay Thai?

 

He made a brief appearence on Ringside last week too, and despite the clear physical deterioation he seemed in good spirits.

Yeh buncey asked him about what happened with him and this kickboxing thing, he sorta laughed and said he was ready to go in there throwing punches and the othet guy wouldnt stop kicking him, said his legs had never hurt so bad, said he could still feel it now. He did mention something about just doing it for the money but it was hard to make out with his voice.

Other things of note he said was he wished he had boxed for longer but rock newman talked him into retiring, i dont fully know what happened with them but bowe doesnt seem keen on him- i missed the first coupla minutes of the int so i may have missed that. Said he regretted not saving his money. And claimed the lewis fight didnt happen as lewis wouldnt agree to taking only 25% of the purse. Bowe said when he first fought holyfield he only got that share so expected lewis to do that when fighting him.

[wandshogun09]

What channel is the Bruno documentary on Loki?

 

BBC Three 9 pm.

 

Cheers. I missed it at 9 but it's repeated at 1am. I'll record it.

 

Its a shame Bowe didn't stay in shape and fight Lewis and Tyson. Could have been great fights if he'd been in top form. Hopefully getting his legs kicked in will have put him off trying to kickbox again. Good to hear he seems happy enough though.

 

Can't see Groves giving Froch too much trouble. Should be exciting and I don't doubt Groves will be game, but I can't see past Froch winning.