Final Colston Hall, Bristol show - Doug Vrs Jonny!

[CracktonMoj]

He's becoming all insightful and clever, which freaks me out TOTALLY as it's Bagga and stuff

I think for next year Allstar should change thier approch if they want to gain new or keep existing fans.

Mmmmm watch out Stephen Hawking!!! And I look forward to his next show breaking that difficult 50 paying punters mark...

See, I was referring to the stuff I quoted from him, which is why I quoted it. You know, the stuff that summarises why All Star attendance is down, which coincidentally is the stuff that Dixon doesn't seem to grasp.Also: I've amended your quotation marks so you don't look like an idiot

[Guest overbooked]

Quite funny how little you people slagging away actually know.

Surely the customer is always right?Whether you agree with what they are saying or not, it is their money that pays your wages. As 'hardcore' fans (in the old sense, not the chair-swinging sense) Seph and Moj and others are the fanbase that will remain once the current All-Star fanbase dies out. They will carry on paying their money and carrying on with their right as consumers to criticise. That being the case, dismissing them off-hand is insane on your part. Piss the younger 'hardcores' off enough to put them off going to All-Star shows and in ten years time you'll have no audience at all.

[WhizzKid]

See, I was referring to the stuff I quoted from him, which is why I quoted it. You know, the stuff that summarises why All Star attendance is down, which coincidentally is the stuff that Dixon doesn't seem to grasp.

It's only the thoughts of yourself, Bagga and a couple of others on why attendances for All Star shows are down. Different types of fan enjoy different things and where as the general internet audience are easy and simple to provide for, a touring promotion aiming their product for a wider audience has to put on a wider variety of wrestling for the punter. As has been mentioned audiences in general are down because wrestling is going through one of those down periods. I have nothing against the FWA but know you are a fan, so please tell us why a product that you claim is so much better than the other UK promoters is feeling the pinch too?? Yes, the Bristol, Croydon and Hanley audiences are down but still decent sized crowds and other recent All Star shows have drawn crowds as good as ever. If it's not just the down turn in the popularity of wrestling, why do you think attendences at Broxbourne and Bethnal Green are down on what they were? The thing that people get so annoyed about, is that you and a couple of others slag off All Star for things (that in most cases I don't really see as a problem whether All Star, FWA or whoever do it but it upsets you) and then others can prove that the FWA and others do exactly the same but you tend to not mention it or are not upset about it when that happens - think it's called being two faced. I guess when you're successful like Brian Dixon, you're going to get knocked by certain people. The shows I have seen this year from the group were very strong, they've given some good young wrestlers a place to work and learn more about their trade, they had one of the top talents outside of the UK, American Dragon, working for them for six months, they had classics like Dragon Vrs Storm, Doug Vrs Storm, Mason Vrs Brookside, P N Vrs Brookside, Swift Vrs Dynamite, etc, etc (as good as anything I've seen in the UK) and given so many wrestlers a place to work and make their living. So many positives this year and another great year ahead in 2004 by the looks of things.

[seph]

The thing that people get so annoyed about, is that you and a couple of others slag off All Star for things (that in most cases I don't really see as a problem whether All Star, FWA or whoever do it but it upsets you) and then others can prove that the FWA and others do exactly the same but you tend to not mention it or are not upset about it when that happens - think it's called being two faced.

As I have already mentioned in an earlier post that you have made no reference to, YES, other companies have been guilty of All Star-level incompetence. What you fail to grasp is that All-Star:*is guilty of these offences FAR MORE FREQUENTLY than any other fed in the country, and*is also in the position to do something about it, but does not.The reason that me & Moj pick on All-Star is that they keep on making the same mistakes over and over again (read: negligent handling/attempted handling of situations, often controllable). When they STOP doing so, we'll be more inclined to look at the positive aspects which you have alluded to.And another thing, All-Star has indeed had some great matches featuring top talents from around the world. The problem is that not all of them attend every single show on a particular tour (NOT a particular week as they would be understandably knackered- they are human beings after all). AmDrag, in particular, was advertised on being at Bristol at least twice on his FIRST tour, yet did not show. Can't fault him for that, but what you have to realise is that if they don't eventually get round everywhere, many fans won't know who they are. And barring All-Star's forum (population: single figures) doing as many of the shows as possible is the only way to get recognised. That's the way wrestling was around the world before TV even touched it, and it's the way for every federation in the country that has no TV show (read: 95%)Another Example: Sylk Wagner Brown & April Hunter. Their pictures were seen on at least 1 Bristol poster, but they never showed when they were on tour. The rule is "Don't get around, Don't expect recognition." It's sad and inane, but it's true.(EDIT: Any aspersions about the effectiveness of the All Star forum for other people to talk about ASW should be cast aside by the fact that, not counting the Forum Rules, the bottom topic on page 1 was pasted over 6 MONTHS before the top topic.) Edited December 17, 2003 by sephjnr

[WhizzKid]

AmDrag, in particular, was advertised on being at Bristol at least twice on his FIRST tour, yet did not show.As we discussed at the time, Dragon was billed just the once at Bristol and his arrival was delayed. He was advertised on a poster (against P N) and was scheduled to arrive but when it was confirmed he wouldn't be here for the show, he wasn't advertaised in the press ads I recall. You and Moj went on that he was billed twice and started believing it yourselves it seems. It shows that you guys don't pay attention, and certainly not to detail, as much as you claim. Oh yeah, and Doug Williams even turned up on that show and wasn't billed on the poster or in the press. You can't get any better addition than that!Sylk Wagner Brown & April Hunter. Their pictures were seen on at least 1 Bristol poster, but they never showed when they were on tourSlyk and April have never been announced as appearing at Bristol, although their picture appears on a number of general posters. The only local (to you and I) shows they have been announced as appearing on are Swindon and Gloucester earlier in the year and they appeared on both.It's also well known why P N wasn't at the Bristol show. Legit 'no shows' which you are going to get more often from a promotion that puts on so many shows, than one that puts on just a handful of shows. Simple maths, although I know from the crowd size estimates you come out with isn't one of your strongest points.

[alex shane's selling ability]

As Whizzkid correctly points out, attendances are down across the board for wrestling in the UK. This is made all the more worrying when SKY weren't prepared to be held to ransom over the PPV rights of the 4 WWE PPV events that they dont hold at the moment, which suggests viewing figures are down as well.I'd argue that a lot of UK fans just dont want to go to wrestling shows every two, three or even four weeks as they have in the past but would prefer to go a few times a year. We hear the same old debates about All Star: There's too much stalling...well give me a 30 minute plus psychology masterclass like Dragon V Doug in Croydon a few months ago than a 10 minute spotfest any day. Dont blame Brian Dixon for the lack of attention span of some wrestling fans when faced with no fast forward button or lack of foreign objects crashed over workers heads!! They only use ex-WWF old men as imported stars....Chris Hero, American Dragon, Slyk Wagner Brown, David Swift and Nigel McGuiness in the past year.Like most UK fans i'm quite happy to pick and choose which shows I go to whoever promotes them, depending on who appears be it TWA, FWA, All Star, Premier or whoever. The fact that Bagga has now decided to do the same is hardly a revelation, its what most people do anyway!!

[CracktonMoj]

Oh yeah, and Doug Williams even turned up on that show and wasn't billed on the poster or in the press. You can't get any better addition than that!

And however much you try to lie, AmDrag was advertised once by the ring announcer going 'Next month, American Dragon!' and then no mention was made of him the next month. The month after that the local posters advertised, as you said, American Dragon/PN News, neither of whom appeared. Fair enough that Doug turned up to replace AmDrag (but to be fair that's only an adequate replacement for net fans, of which there were approx. three in attendance - the other fans would have turned up expecting a new masked American and got an admittedly awesome guy they've seen plenty of times before), but that's still News unnacounted for... as I recall the replacement for *him* was James Mason pulling double duty as Tagori.

Slyk and April have never been announced as appearing at Bristol

Oh, I'm sure they've been announced by the ring announcer as appearing next month...

[seph]

AmDrag, in particular, was advertised on being at Bristol at least twice on his FIRST tour, yet did not show.As we discussed at the time, Dragon was billed just the once at Bristol and his arrival was delayed. He was advertised on a poster (against P N) and was scheduled to arrive but when it was confirmed he wouldn't be here for the show, he wasn't advertaised in the press ads I recall. You and Moj went on that he was billed twice and started believing it yourselves it seems. It shows that you guys don't pay attention, and certainly not to detail, as much as you claim. Oh yeah, and Doug Williams even turned up on that show and wasn't billed on the poster or in the press. You can't get any better addition than that!Sylk Wagner Brown & April Hunter. Their pictures were seen on at least 1 Bristol poster, but they never showed when they were on tourSlyk and April have never been announced as appearing at Bristol, although their picture appears on a number of general posters. The only local (to you and I) shows they have been announced as appearing on are Swindon and Gloucester earlier in the year and they appeared on both.It's also well known why P N wasn't at the Bristol show. Legit 'no shows' which you are going to get more often from a promotion that puts on so many shows, than one that puts on just a handful of shows. Simple maths, although I know from the crowd size estimates you come out with isn't one of your strongest points. It's called "making a mistake". I've now admitted that twice in this thread, and you have nothing to say for either instance. That's having low character. And, yet again, they only announced that AmDrag would not show AFTER THE FANS PAID UP AND GOT IN THE DOOR. I have to highlight this to you because it's VERY important- Many people travel to shows on the basis of one wrestler (many don't, but several others do), and if they were informed BEFORE they paid for their tickets, then they would still have a choice as to whether or not they'd still go. The fact that Dixon's announcements frequently (read: not always, but most of the time) happen after the fans can't do anything about it means either he is lazy or crooked ("you've paid up so take what you're given"). The website announcements only come *after* the first poor sods who pay money to see certain wrestlers (and this has happened more than once) sit through whatever they consider to be extra to what they came to see, without getting what they came to see. It IS that easy to understand.As for Slyk and April, I KNOW they were never billed on a Bristol card. That's why I DIDN'T SAY they were. I said they were advertised on a particular poster. Being billed for a show and being advertised on a show's poster are 2 different things. And as far as "generic" postering goes, Dixon is now moving away from that, as they currently have 2 different posters, billing 2 different events and 2 different cards, on the All-Star homepage at the moment- one for Bristol tomorrow night, one for Croydon in the new year. As for PN no-showing, what WAS the reason for his no-show? it certainly wasn't announced to the people who paid to see him at the time, THE PEOPLE WHO MATTER THE MOST. Yet again, for every good piece of informed news ASW posts (or otherwhise tries to make available) some poor lot of people have to suffer first hand. It's almost NEVER done with sufficient warning, and that is one major beef many have with All-Star, me & Moj included.And by the way, what press ads do you read, and what papers are they in? I'd be VERY interested to see what adverts ASW get - especially considering the arena change.

[CracktonMoj]

There's too much stalling...well give me a 30 minute plus psychology masterclass like Dragon V Doug in Croydon a few months ago than a 10 minute spotfest any day. Dont blame Brian Dixon for the lack of attention span of some wrestling fans when faced with no fast forward button or lack of foreign objects crashed over workers heads!! They only use ex-WWF old men as imported stars....Chris Hero, American Dragon, Slyk Wagner Brown, David Swift and Nigel McGuiness in the past year.

Do you hear anyone complaining about Dragon/Doug etc when the matches do happen? No... the problem happens when you have Generic Heel (example: Julio Torres) and Generic Face (Kid Cool) and instead of making the stalling an integral part of the match (which is fair enough) do it to eat up time. Further problems happen when seventy five percent of the matches have this five-ten minute stallfest at the beginning of every bout - the heat changes from 'You bastard heel' to 'This is shit'.And isn't Nigel McGuinness British? Not to mention awful...

As Whizzkid correctly points out, attendances are down across the board for wrestling in the UK.

Well I could have sworn that Majik's Midlands Pro Wrestling group has enjoyed steadily increasing attendances, as well as the two Scottish feds. And UCW (Wilts) drew a full house of 250 a few months ago (more on that in a second). And FWA Northern Exposure houses were up from northern Breakout Tour attendances... Newport went from 350 paid and fifty comps to 440 paid, ten comps... Broxbourne's held steady, Portsmouth's pretty much the same as it's always been for the Academy shows unless Sloan wants to correct me (plus they're running more), and WZW seem to be on the up, too, although I know very little about them except their posters look quite nice.As far as I can see, the arse is dropping out of these people's products: The tribute guys like Oric and Klondyke Jake, All Star, and Premier. I'm basing this on there being very little news of actual tribute shows nowadays - Cwmbran used to have one every couple of months, then they came to Newport and got closed down by Trading Standards. There's very little moaning about total tribute shows on boards any more, which is a good thing.The Dart might be able to shed more light on Premier attendances - going up, or down? I've heard the latter, but I'm giving them benefit of the doubt as they don't false advertise, and uniquely among Britwres groups, say 'We're putting on a traditional show' and then put on a traditional show. No "THIS IS AMERICAN WRESTLING but we give public warnings and hate Americans" for them...And All Star I'll summarise thusly: plummetting attendance in at least two of their three major markets, one being so bad that they have to relocate from an arena in which they've promoted regularly for fifty years, and move to a smaller hall in an estate somewhere. Success? If you don't have access to a dictionary and furthermore don't know what the word means, you might class that as a success, yes.And back to UCW: that 250 house was drawn on the strength of a Bra and Panties match between some jailbait. When the council decreed they couldn't run the bra and panties match, they IMMEDIATELY wrote on a big sheet of paper that the match wouldn't have the Bra and Panties stip, and put it outside the hall, so that people could make their choice on whether to attend or not. That is worth a HUGE amount of kudos, and is why I'm not going to be super-critical of them despite them having about three good regular workers and completely awful booking. Yes.

[seph]

ATTN: people who may -anytime in the future- may ask what Dixon can do to avoid False Advertising rants/complainta about no-shows:

Even if it means quickly knocking up another flier on your 10-yr-old brother's copy of Word, legging it to a photocopier and then running like a blue-arsed fly to everywhere you've posted/advertised (Or even placing a massive A1 poster saying "Last night Thunder defeated Robbie Brookside for the title. TONIGHT Robbie will try to win it BACK!" outside the arena), it's still better than waiting until the people have paid their money, sat down and can do feck all about it.

=THEORY.

And back to UCW: that 250 house was drawn on the strength of a Bra and Panties match between some jailbait. When the council decreed they couldn't run the bra and panties match, they IMMEDIATELY wrote on a big sheet of paper that the match wouldn't have the Bra and Panties stip, and put it outside the hall, so that people could make their choice on whether to attend or not. That is worth a HUGE amount of kudos, and is why I'm not going to be super-critical of them despite them having about three good regular workers and completely awful booking. Yes.

= IMPLEMENTATION.Theory + Implementation = RESULT.

[The Dart]

The Dart might be able to shed more light on Premier attendances - going up, or down?

Might I?????I've only ever been to 2 Premier shows, but they were both at the same venue, and there were less people there the 2nd time, about 150 in May, and about 130 in October....but in the same town last year and years before Premier ran an 800 seat venue which used to sell out, but then the attendance went down big time, so they moved to the smaller 175(ish?) capacity venue, and now they are not selling that out they have moved to a town just down the road which apparently is even smaller, but I won't found out until February.

[SensiblePostsOnly]

I've only ever been to 2 Premier shows, but they were both at the same venue, and there were less people there the 2nd time, about 150 in May, and about 130 in October....but in the same town last year and years before Premier ran an 800 seat venue which used to sell out, but then the attendance went down big time, so they moved to the smaller 175(ish?) capacity venue, and now they are not selling that out they have moved to a town just down the road which apparently is even smaller, but I won't found out until February.

However, the last Worthing show they ran was up about 66% on the previous from about 150 to 250.Also they have been doing consistent numbers in Gosport, Midhurst and Potters Bar for at least the past 5 years.

[seph]

The Dart might be able to shed more light on Premier attendances - going up, or down?

Might I?????I've only ever been to 2 Premier shows, but they were both at the same venue, and there were less people there the 2nd time, about 150 in May, and about 130 in October....but in the same town last year and years before Premier ran an 800 seat venue which used to sell out, but then the attendance went down big time, so they moved to the smaller 175(ish?) capacity venue, and now they are not selling that out they have moved to a town just down the road which apparently is even smaller, but I won't found out until February.

[WhizzKid]

Well I could have sworn that Majik's Midlands Pro Wrestling group has enjoyed steadily increasing attendances, as well as the two Scottish feds. And UCW (Wilts) drew a full house of 250 a few months ago (more on that in a second). And FWA Northern Exposure houses were up from northern Breakout Tour attendances... Newport went from 350 paid and fifty comps to 440 paid, ten comps... Broxbourne's held steady, Portsmouth's pretty much the same as it's always been for the Academy shows unless Sloan wants to correct me (plus they're running more), and WZW seem to be on the up, too, although I know very little about them except their posters look quite nice.

So, as always attendances are up and down for all promoters. As for Newport, glad to hear the FWA are doing so well (although really not a whole world different to the Bristol attendances) but I'm sure if they tried to run every 3 or 4 weeks there I'm sure it would be difficult. As has been stated before, the movement to a new venue has nothing to do with attendances. If that was the case, they wouldn't continue to run in the city would they?

As far as I can see, the arse is dropping out of these people's products: The tribute guys like Oric and Klondyke Jake, All Star, and Premier. I'm basing this on there being very little news of actual tribute shows nowadays - Cwmbran used to have one every couple of months, then they came to Newport and got closed down by Trading Standards. There's very little moaning about total tribute shows on boards any more, which is a good thing.

As has been said earlier attendances are mixed for all promoters at the moment and the FWA not running anywhere at the moment (turn a blind eye to that I notice Moj) shows that the arse could indeed be dropping out of the British wrestling industry sadly. It's a shame because the guys that you mention, especially All Star and Premier, who put on a great show and even Jake and Orig have had moments. It's just that entertainments come in and out of fashion as has pro wrestling many times and in time you'll find out that for yourself. Wrestling survived in this country at times thanks to those venues and promoters that you continue to slag off and I just hope that the promotion you support isn't as cocky to the fact that we are heading for a down period at the moment as you. It may need loyal fans and a lot of hard work from promoters, wrestlers and supporters alike to keep the business alive and well as a live entertainment in this country.

[alex shane's selling ability]

And back to UCW: that 250 house was drawn on the strength of a Bra and Panties match between some jailbait. When the council decreed they couldn't run the bra and panties match, they IMMEDIATELY wrote on a big sheet of paper that the match wouldn't have the Bra and Panties stip, and put it outside the hall, so that people could make their choice on whether to attend or not. That is worth a HUGE amount of kudos, and is why I'm not going to be super-critical of them despite them having about three good regular workers and completely awful booking. Yes.

We're surely working on the basis that anyone that goes to see a show purely for a bra and panties match with a couple of 12 year olds probably cant read..?Also on your rather strict level of what counts as tribute usage wouldn't a wrestler called 'The Gangsta' count?Also wouldnt UCW be the company that you advertised yourself as appearing for in your sig and then went quiet about!?!?