Paid Members wandshogun09 Posted July 26 Paid Members Share Posted July 26 (edited) Don’t know if anyone saw but from October 1st… • 12-6 elbows are legal. • The rule about putting one hand on the canvas making you a grounded opponent is no more. You’ll have to have a knee or shoulder or whatever on the mat to be considered a downed opponent. I like both of these changes. Long overdue. Although it’s generated some proper dopey talk about getting the Jon Jones vs Matt Hamill result overturned. I’ve never understood the cries of injustice when it comes to that fight. Those elbows were illegal at that time, Jones knew they were illegal and he still decided to absolutely obliterate Hamill with them to the point he couldn’t continue. That’s a clear cut disqualification. Black and white, no grey area whatsoever. I’m happy the rule is being changed now but you can’t go back and start changing results from 15 years ago! They probably will though just because it’s Jones and Dana’s got a serious boner for him these days. This is disturbing though, Hamill calling for a rematch with Jones. In 2024… Jesus wept. Worst thing is, he’s probably got a better chance of getting the Jones fight than Tom Aspinall does! Anyway yeah, what’s your thoughts on these changes? Do you wanna see more? Should knees on the ground be legal? Would you go full on Pride mode and allow soccer kicks and stomps? Take elbows out to prevent cuts? Ideas to tackle eye pokes? It’s a thread that’s probably gonna get barely any traffic but thought I’d whack it up anyway. Edited July 26 by wandshogun09 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dai Posted July 26 Share Posted July 26 Both sound like great ideas. I assume the 12-6 elbows have always been allowed in Japan, but when watching the Japanese stuff it doesnt seem like anything that significant or a big game changer. The knee one is a good idea too. I would allow soccer kicks and stomps too. Again, theyre allowed in Japan Im pretty sure, but its not like every fight there has a Wandy Silva-Kondo face head stomp moment. Theyve just redisgned the gloves so the eye poke situation is never going to change. I think the biggest thing they should be looking at to change is when the fighter misses weight. I think thats the biggest issue I can see at the moment. I think you suggested a possible one point deduction before the fight has started, which seems like a good idea. If not that, they should increase the percentage fine to at least 50%. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members wandshogun09 Posted July 26 Author Paid Members Share Posted July 26 Yeah definitely agree they’ve got to toughen up the punishments for weight missers, and especially repeat offenders. Also think the refs need to be quicker to penalise fighters for repeated eye pokes, cage grabbing, glove/short grabbing and so on. I realise they’re tough calls to make a lot of times and the ref opens themselves up to backlash and harsh criticism if they get it wrong but…that’s the job. Too many times you’ll see a fighter repeatedly grabbing the cage to stop takedowns or whatever and the ref will just keep warning ‘don’t grab the fence, hands off the fence’. It’s not good enough and there’s no point in warning them if you’re not gonna follow through with a punishment the next time they do it. If you know the ref’s warnings are an empty threat, there’s no deterrent. 23 minutes ago, Dai said: Both sound like great ideas. I assume the 12-6 elbows have always been allowed in Japan, but when watching the Japanese stuff it doesnt seem like anything that significant or a big game changer. The knee one is a good idea too. I would allow soccer kicks and stomps too. Again, theyre allowed in Japan Im pretty sure, but its not like every fight there has a Wandy Silva-Kondo face head stomp moment. I’m out of the loop with the Japanese scene these days but I think a few feds don’t allow elbows. Pride didn’t allow elbows (to the head anyway, you could elbow the body) because they felt it led to more cuts rather than clean finishes. Not sure what the rule sets look like over there these days, probably varies from promotion to promotion. I get the argument, to be honest. Certainly back in that era, you didn’t really see a lot of elbow finishes. But they did cause cuts. I wouldn’t wanna lose elbows these days though. Fighters have got better at incorporating them now and it’s not just a weapon used for ground and pound. A well executed standing elbow KO/TKO is a thing of beauty. Not sure I’d bring back stomps and soccer kicks myself, even as a massive Wandy/Shogun bummer. But knees on the ground, I would. It would be very interesting to see how that would affect things. Could really shake up the whole game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Carbomb Posted July 26 Paid Members Share Posted July 26 I've never liked the stomps and soccer kicks thing - just feels very unsporting. One thing I'd like to see (and please feel free to explain if I'm missing anything) is a second weigh-in on the day of the fight, to try and address the current gaming of the system that basically allows fighters who are clearly too big for the weight class nearly killing themselves just to give themselves a size advantage, and then clearly fighting above the actual weight class, especially if the other fighter is fighting at their natural weight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members wandshogun09 Posted July 26 Author Paid Members Share Posted July 26 Same day weigh ins were a thing in Boxing for years and I think the main reason they stopped that (I wanna say around late 70s/early 80s maybe?) was because of safety concerns that fighters wouldn’t have enough time to properly rehydrate. I don’t know if a specific death triggered it but that and the 15 round title fights got sacked off in an attempt to protect fighter health more. I know they’ve done kind of an unofficial weigh in on the day of the fight over the years since, I guess just to monitor how much heavier guys come in after rehydrating, and it’s shown as an on-screen graphic for some fights. It’s a weird one because I do get your logic. You’d think it’d limit some of the silly weight cutting in MMA. It probably would overall but you’d always get some fighters still trying to do it, thinking it’s giving them an advantage. And then obviously, there’s less time for them to rehydrate so it’s a dangerous game. I think it’d be worse for that in MMA as well where a lot of these fighters, especially wrestlers, come from more of a weight cutting culture. They’re always gonna think they can get the better of the weight cut. Weight cutting is the one thing that I don’t think they’ll ever be able to properly police in MMA. You just have to hope the medical staff are watching them like a hawk and hopefully avoid a tragedy. It’s scary shit though when you properly think about what they’re actually doing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Carbomb Posted July 26 Paid Members Share Posted July 26 10 minutes ago, wandshogun09 said: Same day weigh ins were a thing in Boxing for years and I think the main reason they stopped that (I wanna say around late 70s/early 80s maybe?) was because of safety concerns that fighters wouldn’t have enough time to properly rehydrate. I don’t know if a specific death triggered it but that and the 15 round title fights got sacked off in an attempt to protect fighter health more. I know they’ve done kind of an unofficial weigh in on the day of the fight over the years since, I guess just to monitor how much heavier guys come in after rehydrating, and it’s shown as an on-screen graphic for some fights. It’s a weird one because I do get your logic. You’d think it’d limit some of the silly weight cutting in MMA. It probably would overall but you’d always get some fighters still trying to do it, thinking it’s giving them an advantage. And then obviously, there’s less time for them to rehydrate so it’s a dangerous game. I think it’d be worse for that in MMA as well where a lot of these fighters, especially wrestlers, come from more of a weight cutting culture. They’re always gonna think they can get the better of the weight cut. Weight cutting is the one thing that I don’t think they’ll ever be able to properly police in MMA. You just have to hope the medical staff are watching them like a hawk and hopefully avoid a tragedy. It’s scary shit though when you properly think about what they’re actually doing. That's fucking mental. The reason I'd stipulate same-day weigh-ins is to get the fighters to realise that it's impossible to rehydrate in that time, and therefore not even try to do that kind of weight cut. Maybe institute a same-day weigh-in and a minimum level of hydration (assuming that's measurable)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cousin Jim Bob Posted July 26 Share Posted July 26 2 hours ago, wandshogun09 said: Same day weigh ins were a thing in Boxing for years and I think the main reason they stopped that (I wanna say around late 70s/early 80s maybe?) was because of safety concerns that fighters wouldn’t have enough time to properly rehydrate. I don’t know if a specific death triggered it but that and the 15 round title fights got sacked off in an attempt to protect fighter health more. It took ages for boxing to stop doing same day weigh ins. There were big fights still using it in the early 90's. Chavez vs Taylor 1 and Tyson vs Ruddock 1 were same day from what I remember. Loads of the 80's fab 4 fights were same day like Hagler/Leonard. It depended on the sporting body but it was definitely get fazed out over the 80's and gone by the early 90's. The death of Kim Duk-koo after his fight with Ray Mancini definitely played a part. Mancini was a popular fighter and it was shown live on network TV in the US. It was an absolute tragedy and the aftermath was horrendous. Kim's fiancee was pregnant at the time, his mother committed suicide a few months later and the referee committed suicide the following year. As a result boxing stopped doing 15 round title fights and started doing 12. As I mentioned before it wasn't immediate about the weigh ins but the death will certainly have been a part of the discussions. Big fights getting cancelled the day off like Eddie Mustafa Muhammad vs Michael Spinks will have to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members wandshogun09 Posted July 26 Author Paid Members Share Posted July 26 That’s right @Cousin Jim Bob I was thinking of the Mancini vs Kim fight when I typed that but couldn’t remember the details. While we’re on that subject, anyone who hasn’t seen it I'd highly recommend ‘The Good Son’ documentary on that Mancini vs Kim fight. The more I think about it, yeah, I remember some cases of same day weigh ins even over here into the 90s. Pretty sure Nigel Benn talked about having a nightmare with it for one of his big fights. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dai Posted July 26 Share Posted July 26 I vaguely remember some MMA company trying the weigh ins and having them be a max weight on fight night. No idea if I'm just making this up but I do seem to remember it being a thing for a certain company. Anyone remember something like this? In terms of business sense, the whole same day weigh in just doesn't make sense to a company. As has been said, fighters will always try and push it to the max, so having a load of fighters missing weight on the day of the fight would be a logistal and PR nightmare. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Egg Shen Posted July 28 Paid Members Share Posted July 28 Might be thinking of One? They had or had a different kind of set up for weigh in's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Egg Shen Posted July 28 Paid Members Share Posted July 28 On 7/26/2024 at 10:28 AM, Dai said: I assume the 12-6 elbows have always been allowed in Japan You may be remembering incorrectly but all elbows to head to the head were banned in Pride. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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