Bret Hart.

[freaky]

Let's not turn this into ANOTHER Michaels/Hart thread. There's nothing more that needs to be said on the subject.

[IANdrewDiceClay]

Let's not turn this into ANOTHER Michaels/Hart thread. There's nothing more that needs to be said on the subject.

He started it.

[Enter Raven]

What are you basing this on? Pops dont generate business. Otherwise Kofi Kingstone would be the champion and John Cena would be pissing in his pants at the thought of his PPV money being shared. Bret's been involved at alot of top angles since his return and even the one glaring shite angle (the car accident one) was done to set up that brilliant segment last week. Viewing figures, merchandise sales and feedback from the sheets and casual fans has been very good. They've even cancelled a proposed Bret Hart DVD, because his last DVD's sales have spiked since his return. Far better than when Piper rolls back into town. When you say it's been "to long", I dont get what your talking about. Hogan's return bombed in 2002 in every aspect apart from merchandise and one WrestleMania buyrate that would have done good business anyway, Steve Austin's return in 2003 died on its arse when the buyrate to WrestleMania 19 came in, Piper never does anything for business other than a brief pop and Flair's only used as a cashcow they sell a DVD or two off. WWE's business has probably never been better since 2001, so it's best he came back during a period where people might actually buy his shit, and actually watch him.

I'm really not trying to start an argument, I especially don't want to jump in another Hart/Michaels debate, all I'm saying is, even you must be able to see the fact that considering 12 years of build up and the fact Montreal was a significant point in wrestling history, Hart's return has flopped. Really, no one is that fussed, yeah there's some decent angles in there, but on the whole, this should have been one of the biggest things ever and it'd be lucky to scrape into the top 10 angles of the last 5 years. That isn't a slur on Bret or anyone in particular, it just hasn't gone down that well. I personally think this is because Bret has been away from wrestling for too long for the majority of current fans to care about him as much as they should. You are seriously over-defensive.

[Happ Hazzard]

I don't see how it has flopped. There's more interest in WrestleMania in this year than in the last few years, and I imagine a lot of lapsed fans from back in the 90s will be buying the event for old times sake. Fans in the arenas for TV tapings are not truly representative of the WWE Universe as a whole. You are right about it being a few years too long though. I started watching in 1990, and I can't imagine them doing something at WrestleMania VI playing off an incident that happened in 1977. It's kind of like Dirty Dens return to Eastender a few years ago, it was much time later that hardly any characters in the show would know who he was, so they had to have scenes with Iain Beale explaining who he was to people.

[IANdrewDiceClay]

I'm really not trying to start an argument, I especially don't want to jump in another Hart/Michaels debate, all I'm saying is, even you must be able to see the fact that considering 12 years of build up and the fact Montreal was a significant point in wrestling history, Hart's return has flopped. Really, no one is that fussed, yeah there's some decent angles in there, but on the whole, this should have been one of the biggest things ever and it'd be lucky to scrape into the top 10 angles of the last 5 years. That isn't a slur on Bret or anyone in particular, it just hasn't gone down that well. I personally think this is because Bret has been away from wrestling for too long for the majority of current fans to care about him as much as they should. You are seriously over-defensive.

I'm not over defensive at all. It's a discussion forum, and I'm pointing out how I find your wrong. It isnt a Hart/Michaels debate at all. I dont no where your getting that from. My point is, if viewship in the angles he's been in have been up (which it has), merchandise sales have been increased upon his return (which it has), other avenues are pursured (like DVD released, Hall of Fame involvment, talk show appearances to raise awareness of the bout etc.) and quality of the product, it shows that your completely wrong saying "nobodies that bothered". As I said, you dont hear the sound of a remote control being switched on, so pops in arena's mean nothing. Also, in 2010, this shouldnt be anything other than a compelling angle. Bret has had a stroke, he's in the WWE Hall of Fame, he's had a DVD and Vince McMahon is a hammy heel who everyone knows is just a bit of a mental character. It's compelling and has produced some good TV. It had ZERO chance of being a massive Austin vs McMahons style angle at any stage. In 1998, 1999, 2000 and maybe 2001 yes. But in the last 8 or 9 years? No chance.

 

It hasnt flopped at all, and I cant see how you can possibly say it has. Saying "i'm being defensive" is a shit argument, because you cant back your own up.

[Ross]

It could come down to differences in the culture and also purely due to the fact he's not 'American made'.

 

Bret was never the garish, in-your-face babyface like Hogan, Rock, Austin or Michaels. He didn't have a gimmick like Taker. Bret didn't have the 'tough-guy' image, he played on the respect of the fans and their sympathy. Maybe they're just more common values in Canada and Europe? I think that maybe why he was labelled a 'crybaby' in the U.S while still being over in the U.K, Canada, Germany etc.

[Parkamarka]

Seemed to be a heel/heel feud to me, with Hart being cheered on at the PPV due to the hometown bias.

 

Which is fine, but to state that the crowd were "begging for Hart to turn face" - when the event was held in Montreal - is slightly farcical.

 

This is exactly right - it was absolutely a heel vs heel feud, albeit with the knowledge that Hart would obviously be the face in front of the Canadian live audience. Bret did nothing to turn face in the build-up to Survivor Series.

 

Of the replies in this thread that actually take the original question into account, this is the only one I really agree with:

 

I may be wrong, but could it have something to do with the fact that Bret's rise to the top coincided with the WWF's initial expansion into the European and British markets? I mean, the period around 1992-93 was IIRC a relatively bad time for the WWF as far as business in the US was concerned, but as a kid growing up over here I remember it as a boom period, when wrestling was all over the mainstream media with the Slam Jam single breaking the UK top 5 and wrestlers all over breakfast TV. Although we all knew of them from old VHS tapes, Hogan, Warrior and the like were only around fleetingly when the WWF became really big in this country, whereas Bret was around the top of the cards right from the start of the period when regular UK tours started.

[IANdrewDiceClay]

This is exactly right - it was absolutely a heel vs heel feud, albeit with the knowledge that Hart would obviously be the face in front of the Canadian live audience. Bret did nothing to turn face in the build-up to Survivor Series.

Well, explain the Nation and DX beating up the Hart Foundation to a chorus of boos, the Hart's getting set up as racists as an obvious attempt to make the gullible black heels think it was the Harts that did it, ultra babyface Steve Austin helping Bret Hart to beat Faarooq and the cheers Bret got when he finally got his hands on Shawn Michaels, only for Rick Rude to carry Michaels out and the fans not seeing the heels head get torn off, thus making those people pay to see this at the PPV. And the fact that Bret Hart was due to play the babyface roll in his until In Your House in December? Or the "We Want Bret chants" and the boos at the Bret Hart insults when a midget came out or if they buried him onscreen after the screwjob? If Bret didnt get back onside with the fans, when it was announced he had left the WWF wouldnt the people have just gone "thank fuck for that!". Of course it wasnt a heel vs heel feud. Everything in the feud pointed to Bret getting sympathy when all the odds were against them and DX getting heat because they had recently formed and needed to be established. The only way you can say it was a heel vs heel feud is if you ignore all these points. Which you have done.

[garynysmon]

If you take this forum as an example, i'd say a large majority of us were fans way before 1997. As said earlier in the forum, a large number of semi-elapsed fans will watch Wrestlemania, and I think there will be a pleasant surprise for WWE when the buyrate numbers come through.

[Enter Raven]

I'm not over defensive at all. It's a discussion forum, and I'm pointing out how I find your wrong. It isnt a Hart/Michaels debate at all. I dont no where your getting that from. My point is, if viewship in the angles he's been in have been up (which it has), merchandise sales have been increased upon his return (which it has), other avenues are pursured (like DVD released, Hall of Fame involvment, talk show appearances to raise awareness of the bout etc.) and quality of the product, it shows that your completely wrong saying "nobodies that bothered". As I said, you dont hear the sound of a remote control being switched on, so pops in arena's mean nothing. Also, in 2010, this shouldnt be anything other than a compelling angle. Bret has had a stroke, he's in the WWE Hall of Fame, he's had a DVD and Vince McMahon is a hammy heel who everyone knows is just a bit of a mental character. It's compelling and has produced some good TV. It had ZERO chance of being a massive Austin vs McMahons style angle at any stage. In 1998, 1999, 2000 and maybe 2001 yes. But in the last 8 or 9 years? No chance.

 

It hasnt flopped at all, and I cant see how you can possibly say it has. Saying "i'm being defensive" is a shit argument, because you cant back your own up.

Because you have to consider things relatively. I don't doubt that Bret Hart related merchandise and interest is up, of course it is, he's on TV. The point is, the Montreal Screwjob is one of the most notable incidents of the last 20yrs, there are few things that exceed it in fact, except possibly Austin's rise to the title and the formation of the nWo. But despite that, and despite the fact we are finally seeing Hart/McMahon after all these years....are you that excited? I doubt it. And neither are a great deal of people who witnessed it at the time, and all the new fans who aren't fussed who Hart is, certainly don't care too much.

Bret/McMahon had every chance of being a massive Austin vs. McMahon style feud, and had a ton more build up than those two ever did, the only thing holding it back is Bret not being Austin.

[IANdrewDiceClay]

Because you have to consider things relatively. I don't doubt that Bret Hart related merchandise and interest is up, of course it is, he's on TV. The point is, the Montreal Screwjob is one of the most notable incidents of the last 20yrs, there are few things that exceed it in fact, except possibly Austin's rise to the title and the formation of the nWo. But despite that, and despite the fact we are finally seeing Hart/McMahon after all these years....are you that excited? I doubt it. And neither are a great deal of people who witnessed it at the time, and all the new fans who aren't fussed who Hart is, certainly don't care too much.

Bret/McMahon had every chance of being a massive Austin vs. McMahon style feud, and had a ton more build up than those two ever did, the only thing holding it back is Bret not being Austin.

Bret Hart is a 52 year old stroke victim, who is so in with the company these days, he's had a DVD released about his career and been inducted to their Hall of Fame. Vince McMahon's character fucks everyone over. This is a storyline based on two characters on a wrestling show. After about 2002 (as I mentioned) this angle had sailed. This is 2010. A storyline about the Montreal Screwjob is going to create compelling television and do probably a decent bit of business due to the interest it's generated. If you honestly think this had a hope of being an Austin vs McMahon-eqsue feud, you need to have a word with yourself. Bret's limited as fuck. That's why they eliminated any involvment of Shawn Michaels in this storyline, because you couldnt even try and tease that match, because it would never have lived up to even the worst expectations. At least McMahon and Hart can have a fun little gimmick match. Doesnt the fact that the whole feud is built around Bret getting Vince in a Sharpshooter, not prove how simple the payoff to this angle is? This is a special attraction match. Bret Hart is playing the roll of Donald Trump. If this was 1999, this would have done monster business. But it isnt 1999. There's only so much either man wants or can do.

 

Also, anyone who was a fan of Bret Hart is excited to see him back. The new fans are in for a Street fight which is always fun, and the fans are gullable as fuck anyway. Bret's Cena's mate and Vince is a cunt. It's an easy sell. And it's WrestleMania next week? Anyone who isnt a whiny little cynical cunt is excited about WrestleMania, and nobody knows what's going to happen in the Bret vs Vince match, because nobody knows how high or low to put their expectations.

[Wendell Cooley]

Because you have to consider things relatively. I don't doubt that Bret Hart related merchandise and interest is up, of course it is, he's on TV. The point is, the Montreal Screwjob is one of the most notable incidents of the last 20yrs, there are few things that exceed it in fact, except possibly Austin's rise to the title and the formation of the nWo. But despite that, and despite the fact we are finally seeing Hart/McMahon after all these years....are you that excited? I doubt it. And neither are a great deal of people who witnessed it at the time, and all the new fans who aren't fussed who Hart is, certainly don't care too much.

Bret/McMahon had every chance of being a massive Austin vs. McMahon style feud, and had a ton more build up than those two ever did, the only thing holding it back is Bret not being Austin.

Bret Hart is a 52 year old stroke victim, who is so in with the company these days, he's had a DVD released about his career and been inducted to their Hall of Fame. Vince McMahon's character fucks everyone over. This is a storyline based on two characters on a wrestling show. After about 2002 (as I mentioned) this angle had sailed. This is 2010. A storyline about the Montreal Screwjob is going to create compelling television and do probably a decent bit of business due to the interest it's generated. If you honestly think this had a hope of being an Austin vs McMahon-eqsue feud, you need to have a word with yourself. Bret's limited as fuck. That's why they eliminated any involvment of Shawn Michaels in this storyline, because you couldnt even try and tease that match, because it would never have lived up to even the worst expectations. At least McMahon and Hart can have a fun little gimmick match. Doesnt the fact that the whole feud is built around Bret getting Vince in a Sharpshooter, not prove how simple the payoff to this angle is? This is a special attraction match. Bret Hart is playing the roll of Donald Trump. If this was 1999, this would have done monster business. But it isnt 1999. There's only so much either man wants or can do.

 

Also, anyone who was a fan of Bret Hart is excited to see him back. The new fans are in for a Street fight which is always fun, and the fans are gullable as fuck anyway. Bret's Cena's mate and Vince is a cunt. It's an easy sell. And it's WrestleMania next week? Anyone who isnt a whiny little cynical cunt is excited about WrestleMania, and nobody knows what's going to happen in the Bret vs Vince match, because nobody knows how high or low to put their expectations.

I was a fan of Bret Hart but I'm not excited to see him back. It's a bit like bumping into your ex bird at a party and having to make small talk. And those stupid jean shorts he wears - you're not a teenager, FFS. The broken leg swerve was pretty cool but I have no interest in watching them 'wrestle' at Mania. Of all the matches they've announced, that's the one I'm least excited about. It'll be handbags for 5 minutes before the Sharpshooter. Great.

 

'gullable' - are you dyslexic or just 'special'?

[Shane O' Mac Version 2]

I wasn't overly excited about Bret's return, to be honest. I started watching in 98 and never watched WCW, so I didn't really know much about Bret until around 2002, when Confidential aired a story about Montreal. So I went back and caught up on my history with Bret and while he was "technically sound", his matches kind of bored me a little. His entrance was cool, but he never had the flash of guys like Hogan and Rock. I think that's why he's not as popular in America as other places, Americans tend to be drawn to the the showmanship of sports entertainment quicker than the art of pro wrestling IMO.

 

So I'm glad the match at Mania is a no holds barred match, it should be more fun and gimmicky than the usual Bret match. I actually see it being similar to the HBK vs Vince match at WM22, minus ladder dives of course.

[IANdrewDiceClay]

'gullable' - are you dyslexic or just 'special'?

How cool are you, please?! Wow! To answer your question, it's not being special or dyslexic. It's called typing at half-three on a Saturday morning you tosspot. Does you spell-check include the word "cunt"? Anyway shouldnt you being doing your "Jamie Bulger died LOLZ" gimmick or something?

 

Back on topic, old blokes shouldn't wear red and yellow spandex or a dressing gown with fur around it, but if the audience are familiar with a certain type of look, branding and marketing says you should really play to a characters former perception. So all that “your not a teenager mate” is just smart arse drivel. Especially when most of the none casual wrestling audience have long hair, pasty skin and wear HIM t-shirts.

[Magic M]

I will always think of Bret Hart as the "last great babyface". He came right at the transition to the "Attitude Era" when the line between heel and face became blurred.

 

I always loved the promo where he went to Canada and thanked the fans for staying true to him and helping him "always be their hero".