Bret Hart.

[Wendell Cooley]

'gullable' - are you dyslexic or just 'special'?

How cool are you, please?! Wow! To answer your question, it's not being special or dyslexic. It's called typing at half-three on a Saturday morning you tosspot. Does you spell-check include the word "cunt"? Anyway shouldnt you being doing your "Jamie Bulger died LOLZ" gimmick or something?

 

Back on topic, old blokes shouldn't wear red and yellow spandex or a dressing gown with fur around it, but if the audience are familiar with a certain type of look, branding and marketing says you should really play to a characters former perception. So all that

[jimufctna24]

I remember this time last year when Bret did a signing of his book in Manchester and I couldnt even get in the place was so packed

 

I think Bret is so popular outside of the US because he just comes across as so genuine and passionate about what he does on and of screen, he isnt the most colourful or chrasmatic chracter but there is a "real" feel about him and everything that he does, quite similar to the love Jeff Hardy has got in recent years from the fans

 

He is a sympathetic figure and someone you can easily feel empathy for and in a way relate too, Hogan was kind a like a superhero and people love superheros but they cant fully relate to them, Bret is kinda of human like one of us

[Wendell Cooley]

I remember this time last year when Bret did a signing of his book in Manchester and I couldnt even get in the place was so packed

 

I think Bret is so popular outside of the US because he just comes across as so genuine and passionate about what he does on and of screen, he isnt the most colourful or chrasmatic chracter but there is a "real" feel about him and everything that he does, quite similar to the love Jeff Hardy has got in recent years from the fans

 

He is a sympathetic figure and someone you can easily feel empathy for and in a way relate too, Hogan was kind a like a superhero and people love superheros but they cant fully relate to them, Bret is kinda of human like one of us

What if God was one of us, just a slob like one of us?

[Vice]

Is it a possibility that Bret was so popular outside of the US because he wasn't as overwhelmingly 'American' in terms of ideology and character as Hogan was? Or that the international audiences appreciated his style of wrestling more?

[jimufctna24]

Is it a possibility that Bret was so popular outside of the US because he wasn't as overwhelmingly 'American' in terms of ideology and character as Hogan was? Or that the international audiences appreciated his style of wrestling more?

Yes thats another reason why he is so liked out of the US

[Wendell Cooley]

Is it a possibility that Bret was so popular outside of the US because he wasn't as overwhelmingly 'American' in terms of ideology and character as Hogan was? Or that the international audiences appreciated his style of wrestling more?

Yes thats another reason why he is so liked out of the US

I reckon Magnum summed it up perfectly.

[DJ Kris]

Hogan's return bombed in 2002 in every aspect apart from merchandise and one WrestleMania buyrate that would have done good business anyway

I know it's not really what the topic is about, but I have to ask how you come to this conclusion? Hogan's return was very well received. Even as the nWo heel at No Way Out there was a massive ovation. It was becoming clear that by WrestleMania he was gonna need to look to a face turn and the raction he got the first night he came out in the red and yellow was to this day one of the biggest and longest pops I can recall. You say WrestleMania would have done good business anyway, but would it? The main event certainly added nothing and actually suffered for following The Rock and Hogan. I know Hogan's brief title run was really just a token gesture, but was that not off the back of the success his return was having?

[Parkamarka]

This is exactly right - it was absolutely a heel vs heel feud, albeit with the knowledge that Hart would obviously be the face in front of the Canadian live audience. Bret did nothing to turn face in the build-up to Survivor Series.

Well, explain the Nation and DX beating up the Hart Foundation to a chorus of boos, the Hart's getting set up as racists as an obvious attempt to make the gullible black heels think it was the Harts that did it, ultra babyface Steve Austin helping Bret Hart to beat Faarooq and the cheers Bret got when he finally got his hands on Shawn Michaels, only for Rick Rude to carry Michaels out and the fans not seeing the heels head get torn off, thus making those people pay to see this at the PPV. And the fact that Bret Hart was due to play the babyface roll in his until In Your House in December? Or the "We Want Bret chants" and the boos at the Bret Hart insults when a midget came out or if they buried him onscreen after the screwjob? If Bret didnt get back onside with the fans, when it was announced he had left the WWF wouldnt the people have just gone "thank fuck for that!". Of course it wasnt a heel vs heel feud. Everything in the feud pointed to Bret getting sympathy when all the odds were against them and DX getting heat because they had recently formed and needed to be established. The only way you can say it was a heel vs heel feud is if you ignore all these points. Which you have done.

No doubt the Harts were getting out-heeled in the feud, which I guess makes them the faces of that dynamic (since someone has to be) so in a sense I take your point. But I don't remember them turning face or changing up their promos at all. And Bret was still wrestling babyfaces right up until Survivor Series wasn't he?

[IANdrewDiceClay]

Hogan's return bombed in 2002 in every aspect apart from merchandise and one WrestleMania buyrate that would have done good business anyway

I know it's not really what the topic is about, but I have to ask how you come to this conclusion? Hogan's return was very well received. Even as the nWo heel at No Way Out there was a massive ovation. It was becoming clear that by WrestleMania he was gonna need to look to a face turn and the raction he got the first night he came out in the red and yellow was to this day one of the biggest and longest pops I can recall. You say WrestleMania would have done good business anyway, but would it? The main event certainly added nothing and actually suffered for following The Rock and Hogan. I know Hogan's brief title run was really just a token gesture, but was that not off the back of the success his return was having?

Listen, I'm the biggest Hogan mark ever. But the audiences went from high 4's to low 3's on Raw as soon as Hogan won the title and SmackDown literally drew their lowest viewship up until that point. Hogan was actually penned in to hold the WWF title until SummerSlam according to the sheets at the time. That's why they cancelled Triple H proposed long run with the title and put Hogan in straight away. But viewership was dying on it's arse at the time. That's why Hogan went from main events with The Rock and Triple H to special attraction bouts with Edge for the tag titles.

 

No doubt the Harts were getting out-heeled in the feud, which I guess makes them the faces of that dynamic (since someone has to be) so in a sense I take your point. But I don't remember them turning face or changing up their promos at all. And Bret was still wrestling babyfaces right up until Survivor Series wasn't he?

Hart wrestled Faarooq and Triple H in the lead up. Both heels that both were the types of character than got under the fans skin. He cut out most if not all of the American bashing, and he was getting babyface pops. He was getting blamed for trashing lockers rooms when he obviously didnt do it and getting jumped by gangs of wrestlers. Nothing in this post says "Bret the evil baddy". It's not about Michaels being a better heel or Bret being a better heel. It was booked that way because DX were the new heels and needed to be established as the dominant heel group. Bret only wrestled Ken Shamrock, at Bret's request to set him up for his run as a main eventer when Bret left.

[Parkamarka]

No doubt the Harts were getting out-heeled in the feud, which I guess makes them the faces of that dynamic (since someone has to be) so in a sense I take your point. But I don't remember them turning face or changing up their promos at all. And Bret was still wrestling babyfaces right up until Survivor Series wasn't he?

Hart wrestled Faarooq and Triple H in the lead up. Both heels that both were the types of character than got under the fans skin. He cut out most if not all of the American bashing, and he was getting babyface pops. He was getting blamed for trashing lockers rooms when he obviously didnt do it and getting jumped by gangs of wrestlers. Nothing in this post says "Bret the evil baddy". It's not about Michaels being a better heel or Bret being a better heel. It was booked that way because DX were the new heels and needed to be established as the dominant heel group. Bret only wrestled Ken Shamrock, at Bret's request to set him up for his run as a main eventer when Bret left.

I didn't mean out-heeled like that. I just meant in my recollection it was a feud between two established heel characters where one side (DX) was portrayed as more of a heel - because a feud still needs that dynamic. It's splitting hairs a bit anyway, and to be honest I barely remember half the stuff you've mentioned so maybe I'm on shaky ground arguing the point. I do personally recall it being a weird feud between two heel groups, but I'll concede you could probably argue Bret had been turned babyface during the feud, by the standards of what made a babyface circa 1997.

[humanracer]

Sorry a bit late coming to this interesting thread but I wanted to make a few points. Firstly I think Bret's comeback was not a major hit because Bret never really had a big public persona outside of the wrestling world. Both Hogan and The Rock were well known to most people, even people who never watched wrestling. Hart was one of the best ever babyfaces but his popularity was limited to fans of wrestling. Hart was very popular in 1994 and 1995, though he was sidelined for much of 95. He also waited too long for a comeback.

 

 

I also want to touch on the point made by Ian that Bret was in the process of a face turn in the WWF by late 97. I do not believe this. For one, you are talking about a very short space of time here. At Bad Blood Hart was still clearly a heel, up against the pro americans Patriot and Vader. So between then and the Survivor Series, Hart had very little time to attempt a face turn. Besides Hart had told Vince he didn't want to turn babyface again too soon. In fact Hart by this point was already on his way out of the WWF and Vince knew this. Vince really didn't have any plans for Bret beyond Survivor Series (well he had a rough plan of Bret losing to Shawn on three consecutive PPV's but many feel that was a ploy to get Bret to leave for WCW), so there would have been no reason to start a face turn. The "racist" storyline was confusing and disturbing. I always wondered if the fans were cheering because Bret was standing up to the Nation or if they actually enjoyed and believed that the Hart Foundation were making racist comments. I am glad Bret put an end to this storyline. I think it was probably nothing more than a way to make the heel vs heel Dx vs Hart Foundation feud more interesting to US viewers until it was resolved at the Survivor Series.

 

 

I also think it is true to say Shawn "out heeled" Bret. Bret was annoyed that Shawn was turned heel and this was another factor in him leaving the company. Yes Hart was only a heel in the USA but since most of the shows take place there, it is essential that Hart gets as much "heel heat" as possible. Austin was on his way to becoming the top face so having Shawn becoming top heel sidelined Bret, making him feel he had no role left to play in the company.

 

If you want see a complex Heel/Face study in 97 then look at Austin. He technically turned face at Wrestlemania 13 but after that he still acted like a despicable heel, even attacking Jim Ross (who ended up having his neck in a brace). That was the kind of behaviour that the heel Austin did in 2001. This was deliberate. The WWF wanted to make Austin's bad guy persona cool in the USA, while making it appear to European and Canadian viewers that he was still a heel and a bully. However at Survivor Series 97 Austin beat Hart in a quick match and was cheered by the Canadian fans (who had booed him througout the match). Later on Raw Austin said he didn't care about getting revenge on Owen and he just wanted the title. He then became more friendly with Jim Ross and started to play to the fans more. I would argue that this really marked the point where Austin became a fully fledge babyface. Of course it is all a matter of opinion.

 

 

Rob