Other MMA Shows

[jimufctna24]

Sorry, fixed.

 

Anyone fancy telling me where they would rate Askren in the top 10 at Welterweight, I have not been keeping tabs on him.

Edited January 24, 2013 by jimufctna24

[David]

Chandler vs Hawn. Fuck, what a performance. I rate Hawn and I thought he'd give Chandler a good test. Chandler mugged him. Total dominance. I was very surprised at how easy he was taking down and slamming an Olympic level Judo practitioner like Hawn. Then he chokes out that Olympic level Judo practitioner. That's fucking impressive.

 

It's hard to believe Chandler has only been fighting a few years and has only 10 fights. When you watch him fight he looks like a seasoned vet.

He handled Hawn last week as if he was a chump, which I never saw coming at all.

 

I have to say that Eddie Alvarez must be the luckiest man in MMA right now. He was bested and submitted by Michael Chandler in his last Bellator fight to lose his lightweight title, and I believe that Chandler would have the beating of Alvarez 7 or 8 times out of 10.

 

Now he finds himself in the middle of a dick waving competition between the UFC & Bellator/Spike, and stands to profit big from it whichever way it falls. The crazy thing is, he's not even the best lightweight in Bellator, and certainly wouldn't be the best in the UFC, and he isn't even a big name.

[jimufctna24]

My first time watching Bellator my thoughts.

 

- Askren is a beast, I had heard his GnP did not cause too much damage but here it did. I am not sure how he would face against the wrestlers in the UFC, his credentials are up very impressive though. Like I said about Matt Hughes he has that "love to hate" feel to him, which is always a good thing.

 

- Mo looked really good, his opposition was limited and I was worried he would walk into a few looping punches, but he did what he needed to do. His boxing from a technical standpoint was streets ahead and he did not even have to fall back on his massive wrestling advantage. Oozing with charisma and a complete showman, for me he was the star of the show. I think he is becoming my current favorite in MMA.

 

- Lima's leg kicks were some of the most effective I have seen, it was scary the effect they had. I have always seen a upside to Ben Saunders, very tall and wicked knees with a very active ground game. Both impressed me a lot.

 

- The production was strong, the commentary was designed to concentrate on the fighters which I liked, they described the action well and did not come across as overbearing like Rogan does at times or a robot like Anik does.

 

- Overall a very good show

Edited January 25, 2013 by jimufctna24

[David]

Anyone fancy telling me where they would rate Askren in the top 10 at Welterweight, I have not been keeping tabs on him.

For me he's the third best welterweight in the world right now, behind St-Pierre & Hendricks.

[jimufctna24]

Cheers, after seeing his performance last night I can believe it.

[David]

Cheers, after seeing his performance last night I can believe it.

Yup, he's 11-0, unbeaten in four years and has defended his Bellator title four times.

[wandshogun09]

OK, after criticising Askren for being boring he goes and does that

 

In fairness I did say "more often than not he's boring". Just covering my arse there because I did really enjoy his fight with Jay Hieron to be fair. And I do quite like his unique style of wrestling for MMA. He just never really excited me in most of his fights.

 

He looked great against Amoussou though. Went almost how I expected except Askren got the finish and did a lot more damage than I expected. Askren for as dominant as he's been is showing improvements which is quite scary.

 

For me he's the third best welterweight in the world right now, behind St-Pierre & Hendricks.

 

Cheers, after seeing his performance last night I can believe it.

Yup, he's 11-0, unbeaten in four years and has defended his Bellator title four times.

 

I'm not getting into exactly where I'd rank him. I find rankings are really tricky to decide because there are a lot of factors to consider and you'll always have people who agree or strongly disagree about placings.

 

But playing devil's advocat, he's beat some good fighters but the opposition he's beating in Bellator aren't all UFC level guys. Nick Thompson for instance was on a 3 fight losing streak coming into the Askren fight. Getting stopped in all 3 losses to boot. It was none title but still. His last few wins have been over very good fighters but it's hard to say he's #3 in the world based off that for me.

 

Take a guy like Carlos Condit;

 

Yeah, he lost to GSP. Before that he was on a 5 fight winning streak. If you take into account that his last loss before that (Kampmann) was so close a fight that many thought he won, if that was scored for him we're talking a 14 fight streak.

 

If you look at Condit vs Askren head to head, record for record going on their last 6 fights;

 

Condit...

Lost to GSP

Dec over Diaz

KO'd Stun Gun

KO'd Hardy

KO'd Rory

Dec over Ellenberger

 

Askren...

TKO Amoussou

Dec over Lima

Dec over Hieron

Dec over Thompson

Dec over Good

Dec over Hornbuckle

 

Even with the loss to GSP (the best WW in the world), I'd still have Condit above Askren. Based on beating better opposition and finishing most of them.

 

There could be a case for Nick Diaz, Rory MacDonald and Jon Fitch placing higher than Askren as well for me. Again, based on opposition. It can't all go on wins and losses or Dan Severn would have been ranked as a top heavyweight for the last decade. You have to take the level of competition they've beaten into account. Askren is 11-0 but most of his opponents are unproven against UFC level opposition which means comparing record for record is apples and oranges.

 

And to be fair Dave, it's the criticism you've had of the likes of Diaz, Lombard, Alvarez, Melendez etc. All of who have beat comparable or better competition than Askren has. You've doubted all of these guys succeeding in the UFC because they've been fighting lesser opposition. The same has to apply for Askren surely.

 

Not having a go just think it's hard to put Askren's record against the top Welters in the UFC. I'd certainly rank him as a top Welterweight but I wouldn't put a number on it myself. I'd like to see him in the UFC and see how he does. It's clear he's a couple of notches above the Bellator mob of 170lbers at this point.

 

EDIT

 

Oh and forgot to say, Mo looked great. It's hard to say how great because his opponent was pretty unknown but it was a very impressive performance. The hours he's been putting in at Mike's Gym in Holland is clearly working for him.

 

 

And mention has to be made of this...

 

 

Fucking Flying Zaromskis! This is why I love the nutter, you never know what he's gonna do. Even in losing he's always doing some crazy shit. If he's not Cro Copping people dead, he's somersault kicking them into oblivion or doing moonsault guard passes.

 

Edited January 26, 2013 by wandshogun09

[Egg Shen]

was a decent show, no real surprises results-wise but holy fucking shit i think Ben Askren might have silenced 90% of his doubters Thursday night, that was a scary, scary performance. It just seems so effortless to him, he was just assaulting Psycho after round 1, he still doesn't have devastating power but everything he threw was accurate and on the money. It's so hard to rank him because he hasn't beat another 'ranked' guy so to speak but i have him beating everyone that isn't top 5, so i think id have him around 5. The scariest thing about Askren's performances are that there are no secrets, everybody knows what he's wants to do, Askren says what he's going too, people are obviously training to stop that and he just does it anyway.

 

King Mo's debut was what the promotion would have wanted, Mo went out against a wild striker and just cruised, hands looked great and he was brimming with confidence, i can't see Mo having any trouble on his way to the World Title.

 

Felt abit sorry for Tsarev against Lima. I aint sure if the leg kicks injured him or whether he just didn't like them but he got battered. It was another super comfortable performance, Lima's gonna win the tournament (he isn't fighting Saunders next either, that was a mistake on the broadcast).

 

Saunders was fairly routine also, he was fighting an overmatches opponent who did a good job of defending himself but offensively it was all Saunders...what Saunders did do again was prove he has one of the most exciting guards in MMA, i don't know if you'd say he was technically great but he never stops attacking off his back, it pretty much renders the top guy ineffective.

 

Have to love Zaromskis guard pass attempt haha, the guy has never lived up to the promise of his Dream-days but you can guarantee if he's on a card, im tuning in.

[David]

There could be a case for Nick Diaz, Rory MacDonald and Jon Fitch placing higher than Askren as well for me. Again, based on opposition. It can't all go on wins and losses or Dan Severn would have been ranked as a top heavyweight for the last decade. You have to take the level of competition they've beaten into account. Askren is 11-0 but most of his opponents are unproven against UFC level opposition which means comparing record for record is apples and oranges.

 

And to be fair Dave, it's the criticism you've had of the likes of Diaz, Lombard, Alvarez, Melendez etc. All of who have beat comparable or better competition than Askren has. You've doubted all of these guys succeeding in the UFC because they've been fighting lesser opposition. The same has to apply for Askren surely.

 

Not having a go just think it's hard to put Askren's record against the top Welters in the UFC. I'd certainly rank him as a top Welterweight but I wouldn't put a number on it myself. I'd like to see him in the UFC and see how he does. It's clear he's a couple of notches above the Bellator mob of 170lbers at this point.

It all comes down to style, weightclass and the other fighters in that weightclass for me. I simply believe that Askren has a style that would see off Diaz without much trouble to be honest. Then again, I don't rank Diaz in the top five if I'm being honest. I wouldn't pick him against Fitch, Koscheck, Condit, MacDonald or St-Pierre.

 

I'd rate Askren as being a real competitive opponent for pretty much all of the top guys in the UFC in his division, so, taking that and throwing in the fact that he's the #2 promotions champion and has been on a run I'd have to rank him behind the UFC champion and current #1 contender (which is Hendricks, despite Diaz getting the next crack at the title).

[Egg Shen]

Askren is yet to face another top level wrestler in MMA, that's where the test will lie. Askren has some of the best wrestling credentials in the sport but if he fights someone that able to keep things standing they've got a shot, unfortunately for his next opponent Koreshkov, his speciality is striking so he can't have enjoyed seeing what Askren did to Psycho.

[David]

Askren is yet to face another top level wrestler in MMA, that's where the test will lie.

The problem is, there are very few of those guys in his division. Off the top of my head I can think of Fitch, St-Pierre & Hendricks who could give him trouble. I rated him highly before his latest fight, and even higher now.

[jimufctna24]

One thing I that gives David's rating of Askren credit is that if you are going to be strong in one area of MMA in 2013, it better be wrestling. I have read people say that Askren is the best wrestler to ever step foot in MMA, that must give him a significant advantage over other guys outside UFC, like Melendez (decent wrestler) Alverez (again, decent) and Lombard (not sure about, I am going to guess decent based on his judo skills)

 

Whilst Askren has not faced much in the way of top class talent, his wrestling credentials are so far ahead of the likes of Hendricks and Fitch you could argue he could beat them (besides the fact he did not medal, Olympic Wrestling is a level above NCAA). Askren has shown he can adapt his wrestling to MMA as well, so that part of the argument is partially dismissed.

 

The only other guy in recent memory with Askren level wrestling was that guy who I never mention, I think his name is King Mo look how he did against Mousasi when still a relative MMA rookie. Yes, Mousasi is not the best wrestler or anything like the GSP, Rory or Fitch, but it does show that a certain level of wrestling can take you quite deep into the rankings without much seasoning.

 

I agree with EBB saying if someone could keep him standing he may be tested and beaten, trouble is other than Rory and GSP and I do not see anyone at 170lbs being able to do that. Hendricks's wrestling is a tad overrated, Koscheck I thought out-wrestled him and Mike Pierce beat him also, I think Askren could beat him now by smothering him.

Edited January 27, 2013 by jimufctna24

[wandshogun09]

All very good points but the original point was on rankings. Surely rankings have to be based on what you've actually done and who you've actually beat not just how you think he'd do against top competition.

 

I have a feeling he'd do well in the UFC as well but like Ebb said we haven't seen him against really good wrestlers. And at 170 pretty much all the best wrestlers are in the UFC. GSP, Fitch, Koscheck, Hendricks. You also have Rory, Ellenberger, Woodley, Mike Pierce and although not wrestlers, Maia and Stun Gun wouldn't be easy to dominate with wrestling.

 

Askren looks great but of course he will beating strikers. It's not a knock or me saying he can't beat strong grapplers but he's yet to pass that test and until he does I find it hard to decide where he would sit in the rankings.

 

He's a formidable fighter but you can't rank fighters based on how you think they'd do in hypothetical fights. You have to base it on the fights he's actually had.

[jimufctna24]

See personally I fall into the trap of ranking fighters on who I think is the best, not on what they have actually done. I understand that is highly problematic, but so is ranking fighters on what they have actually done.

 

For example, I felt Johnny Hendricks lost to Koscheck yet it goes down as a win for Hendricks. In my mind I think Koscheck is the better fighter (or its at least even) yet if I were to rank on wins and losses I would have to give the higher ranking to Hendricks. Also, say if Rory beats Condit, he has Condit and BJ on his resume, but Hendricks has more big wins with Kos, Fitch and Kampmann.

 

I strongly think Rory is better (I do like Hendricks and think he is top 10, but I have to use him to make a point) but Hendricks would be ranked higher based on more wins. I could also go into the whole how you win debate, like if two fighters beat the same guy but one wins by domination but the other gets a highly disputed points win, should they be ranked the same?

 

Rankings are subjective, it all comes down to personal opinion. And also in the case of me with Askren, speculation.

[David]

Askren looks great but of course he will beating strikers. It's not a knock or me saying he can't beat strong grapplers but he's yet to pass that test and until he does I find it hard to decide where he would sit in the rankings.

 

He's a formidable fighter but you can't rank fighters based on how you think they'd do in hypothetical fights. You have to base it on the fights he's actually had.

So you won't consider him, say, top five, until he makes the jump to the UFC?